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Ranger#5?

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It’s actually very easy when you don’t have people trying to handicap it before it even begins. Several countries already do it.
Are you aware of the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on mass transit projects by Federal, State, and local governments over the last 60 years? Trains and buses are subsidized continuously because they are not profitable and self - supporting by ridership.

Uber was mentioned earlier and that's a great comparison : You contact them and they show up to get you at your location and efficiently take you exactly where you want to go. Mass transit model is the opposite of that, and exactly why mass adoption of that has never, and can never happen despite subsidies, dedicated bus and HOV lanes, etc. There's decades of ridership data to back this up if you care to research it yourself.
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Stevedbvik1

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Public transit, like a bus? How exactly are working people, especially, supposed to make that work? Everyday things we take for granted like taking kids to and from school, mid-day Doctor appointments, shopping, errands on the way home from work, etc. Just not practical despite certain politicians' pipe dreams.
With a PHEV you drive on electric until it switches to ICE. A PHEV will charge on 120v which just about every house in rural America has. I think your comments are meant to be directed to EV’s ?
 

ssjx7squall

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Are you aware of the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on mass transit projects by Federal, State, and local governments over the last 60 years? Trains and buses are subsidized continuously because they are not profitable and self - supporting by ridership.

Uber was mentioned earlier and that's a great comparison : You contact them and they show up to get you at your location and efficiently take you exactly where you want to go. Mass transit model is the opposite of that, and exactly why mass adoption of that has never, and can never happen despite subsidies, dedicated bus and HOV lanes, etc. There's decades of ridership data to back this up if you care to research it yourself.
I am aware. I’m also aware when people try to design cities in such a way where public transit is more feasible and preferable we get people crying about us becoming china
 

TheQuixotic1

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Have you had fast chargers in every garage there for over 100 years too? I'd love to confirm Proof of Concept with the extensive supporting data you provide.
Thanks!
This is nothing new. Decades ago people made similarly poor arguments regarding the mass proliferation of air conditioning/central air in homes.

Here is a link to the original post I made on the Ford Maverick forum regarding virtually the same thing. I have sources and links with extensive supporting data in that post, including valid critiques/weak points that need to be addressed. Below is a rough synopsis:

In 1960 the US generated 0.76 trillion kWh of energy for the year; of course the grid would implode in on itself in 1960 if every home automatically installed and proceeded to run air conditioning full blast. But what did happen was incremental adoption coupled with incremental increase in energy produced. Roughly a 4% increase in energy production each year since 1960 landed the US at over 3.8 trillion kWh produced in 2000. Fast forward to 2021 and 3.8 trillion increased to over 4.1 trillion; an amazing feat since we tend to look at post 2000's technology as vastly increasing the energy efficiency of items, which means more people/households purchased more items and those items were more energy efficient.

If everyone were to switch over to full EVs tomorrow (not going to happen, see air conditioning above), it would require approximately 1 trillion additional kWh of energy produced. And that is if EVs stay as efficient as they currently are with no improvements or breakthroughs. That 1 trillion increase could be accomplished in ~5 years if the US only matched the production increases it achieved from the 1960s-2000s. PHEVs are even less of an issue as their batteries are typically 1/8th the size of BEVs, so that 1 trillion kWh needed becomes even less.

You're making the faster horses vs Model T argument, and you're on the side of faster horses. Stop letting how things are be an enemy to how things can be. This isn't pie-in-the-sky dreamland; it is a future with rational baseline progress that has been the standard year after year.
 

Ranger#5?

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With a PHEV you drive on electric until it switches to ICE. A PHEV will charge on 120v which just about every house in rural America has. I think your comments are meant to be directed to EV’s ?
My reply post in #83 was talking about mass acceptance of PHEVs and lack of home/work charging access for a huge % of the population being a fatal flaw, IMO. 120V charging is much slower and increases your home electric bill. The topic has gone several different ways since then.

I know the difference between plug in hybrids and full BEV. What's the advantage of a PHEV over a regular hybrid if both have limited electric only range and both are supported by ICE engines? The movement is for complete shift to BEV and away from petroleum based fuels and the hybrids have not met expected uptake % despite rebates. I expect eventually hybrids will be phased out or banned along with ICE with the goal being only BEVs, so why not skip buying a hybrid now and go straight to BEV?
 

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Ranger#5?

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This is nothing new. Decades ago people made similarly poor arguments regarding the mass proliferation of air conditioning/central air in homes.

Here is a link to the original post I made on the Ford Maverick forum regarding virtually the same thing. I have sources and links with extensive supporting data in that post, including valid critiques/weak points that need to be addressed. Below is a rough synopsis:

In 1960 the US generated 0.76 trillion kWh of energy for the year; of course the grid would implode in on itself in 1960 if every home automatically installed and proceeded to run air conditioning full blast. But what did happen was incremental adoption coupled with incremental increase in energy produced. Roughly a 4% increase in energy production each year since 1960 landed the US at over 3.8 trillion kWh produced in 2000. Fast forward to 2021 and 3.8 trillion increased to over 4.1 trillion; an amazing feat since we tend to look at post 2000's technology as vastly increasing the energy efficiency of items, which means more people/households purchased more items and those items were more energy efficient.

If everyone were to switch over to full EVs tomorrow (not going to happen, see air conditioning above), it would require approximately 1 trillion additional kWh of energy produced. And that is if EVs stay as efficient as they currently are with no improvements or breakthroughs. That 1 trillion increase could be accomplished in ~5 years if the US only matched the production increases it achieved from the 1960s-2000s. PHEVs are even less of an issue as their batteries are typically 1/8th the size of BEVs, so that 1 trillion kWh needed becomes even less.

You're making the faster horses vs Model T argument, and you're on the side of faster horses. Stop letting how things are be an enemy to how things can be. This isn't pie-in-the-sky dreamland; it is a future with rational baseline progress that has been the standard year after year.
US population in 1960 was 179,323,175 and 2022 was 334,517,796 according to census data. In 1960 there was no mad dash to eradicate coal, nuclear, and natural gas in favor of all electric everything based almost entirely on unreliable wind and solar limited by darkness and no wind downtimes. Also weather events- see Texas freeze 2 years ago. There's lots of gov't issued reports and studies published about our grids needing massive upgrades before even factoring in a total switch to electrification and integrating disparate sources of new power.

No horse vs. Model T or whale oil lamps vs. electrification of the world coming from me. I grew up in CA from 1962-2017 and had a front row seat to all the pie in the sky predictions and squashing of dissent that invariably turns out to be true based on events on the ground instead of studies, reports, computer modeling and projections.

Maybe this issue is your pet policy topic, but my last few replies have been directed at the drive by mass transit argument postings than the single reference I made to bringing grid capacities into the conversation back in my post #83.

I'm much more interested in information about the 6G Ranger than these other diversions with no agreement or resolution anyways and don't want this to turn away attention from that.
 

Ranger#5?

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I am aware. I’m also aware when people try to design cities in such a way where public transit is more feasible and preferable we get people crying about us becoming china
I'm aware of that too, but the fact remains this topic is like beating a dead horse. Our American lifestyle is based on freedom of movement as we please, when we please in our own personal transportation. Mass transit is a non-starter as a primary transportation mode for a majority of our population and using the carrot with subsidies hasn't moved the needle in 50+ years. That is pretty self-evident based on decades of living reality to many of us. The only thing that MAY change behaviors on this would be taking away all our other options. That would be a sad day indeed.
Back to 6G Ranger topics for me...
 

Stevedbvik1

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My reply post in #83 was talking about mass acceptance of PHEVs and lack of home/work charging access for a huge % of the population being a fatal flaw, IMO. 120V charging is much slower and increases your home electric bill. The topic has gone several different ways since then.

I know the difference between plug in hybrids and full BEV. What's the advantage of a PHEV over a regular hybrid if both have limited electric only range and both are supported by ICE engines? The movement is for complete shift to BEV and away from petroleum based fuels and the hybrids have not met expected uptake % despite rebates. I expect eventually hybrids will be phased out or banned along with ICE with the goal being only BEVs, so why not skip buying a hybrid now and go straight to BEV?
It all comes down to driving habits. For us our Escape PHEV is a great fit. We’ve put 1000 miles on it in the last two months and used zero gas. We charge overnight on 120v when the car just sits anyway. So far the cost of electricity is under .05 cents per mile to drive. If we have a long trip then we use the gas engine at around 35-40mpg. We still have our Ranger Tremor to cover all our other needs. It’s not for everyone but it works for us and I imagine for a whole lot of other people.
 

TheQuixotic1

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My reply post in #83 was talking about mass acceptance of PHEVs and lack of home/work charging access for a huge % of the population being a fatal flaw, IMO. 120V charging is much slower and increases your home electric bill. The topic has gone several different ways since then.
I feel like we are all replying to different parts of different posts (I was replying to #90 without regards to #83 using a tangential response on a different forum months ago); but the silver lining is that we all seem to be meeting each other on respectable levels without any accusations of the third Reich yet. :LOL:

With respect to PHEVs and speaking in a very general manner, most people buying higher-trim trucks and SUVs (not base model work trucks) do have access to garages with 120v outlets in them. 120v charging (roughly at 1.5kW) is actually quite suitable for most PHEV applications, as most PHEVs currently on the market can fully charge via 10-12 hours of overnight charging from a standard wall outlet. Most current PHEVs have an all electric range of over 25 miles (many closer to 35), which is in line for most people's daily commutes. The increase users see on their electric bill is substantially less than what they would be paying at the pump (which is why automakers loves to throw their wacky "MPGe" numbers around). This holds true even in extreme weather climates.

I believe it is absolutely logical to simultaneously believe that ICE vehicles/engines will remain in production for decades to come and also believe that we are in the midst of a slow rolling transition to a BEV future. BEV technology is still very much in its infancy and I look forward to seeing breakthroughs it can potentially make in the coming years. Super capacitors, solid state batteries, material recycling, and even currently unknown advancements excite me with the possibility of tomorrow.

That being said, I love the practicality of PHEVs and would love to see them implemented more heavily; every PHEV on the market that I am aware of could double production numbers and still not keep pace with demand (outside of maybe Jeep, which apparently is doing everything wrong in regards to PHEV engineering and QC at the powertrain level). The F-150 PowerBoost is a unicorn at this point, and that's a "hybrid" that's focused on performance and not efficiency. The demand is absolutely there.

Public transportation... that's a whole other rat's nest that I ain't touching! lol
 

Stevedbvik1

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I feel like we are all replying to different parts of different posts (I was replying to #90 without regards to #83 using a tangential response on a different forum months ago); but the silver lining is that we all seem to be meeting each other on respectable levels without any accusations of the third Reich yet. :LOL:

With respect to PHEVs and speaking in a very general manner, most people buying higher-trim trucks and SUVs (not base model work trucks) do have access to garages with 120v outlets in them. 120v charging (roughly at 1.5kW) is actually quite suitable for most PHEV applications, as most PHEVs currently on the market can fully charge via 10-12 hours of overnight charging from a standard wall outlet. Most current PHEVs have an all electric range of over 25 miles (many closer to 35), which is in line for most people's daily commutes. The increase users see on their electric bill is substantially less than what they would be paying at the pump (which is why automakers loves to throw their wacky "MPGe" numbers around). This holds true even in extreme weather climates.

I believe it is absolutely logical to simultaneously believe that ICE vehicles/engines will remain in production for decades to come and also believe that we are in the midst of a slow rolling transition to a BEV future. BEV technology is still very much in its infancy and I look forward to seeing breakthroughs it can potentially make in the coming years. Super capacitors, solid state batteries, material recycling, and even currently unknown advancements excite me with the possibility of tomorrow.

That being said, I love the practicality of PHEVs and would love to see them implemented more heavily; every PHEV on the market that I am aware of could double production numbers and still not keep pace with demand (outside of maybe Jeep, which apparently is doing everything wrong in regards to PHEV engineering and QC at the powertrain level). The F-150 PowerBoost is a unicorn at this point, and that's a "hybrid" that's focused on performance and not efficiency. The demand is absolutely there.

Public transportation... that's a whole other rat's nest that I ain't touching! lol
Speaking of demand, Ford received 3-4 times more orders than what they could build for the 23 Escape PHEV. And that was before they shut down taking orders. I imagine the same thing will happen if a 6G Ranger PHEV is offered.
 

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TheQuixotic1

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Speaking of demand, Ford received 3-4 times more orders than what they could build for the 23 Escape PHEV. And that was before they shut down taking orders. I imagine the same thing will happen if a 6G Ranger PHEV is offered.
Ford is only estimating being able to build 40% of the ordered Maverick Hybrids this year, with no accounting for any hybrids hitting dealer stock. Escape (and Corsair) PHEVs and even the standard hybrids are booked well beyond capacity. The Chevy Bolt EUV is still a unicorn in the vast majority of the country. Same thing with Mach E. Demand for PHEV and BEV are high and across the board, but manufacturers can't and won't meet demand. There seems to be a substantial rift in demand; people either want amazing performance (like Raptor) or amazing efficiency (like PHEVs) and all these middle of the road bland boxes on wheels (Bronco Sports standard ICE Escapes, Edges, and Explorers) keep sitting on the lots for people who are forced into needing to immediately buy a vehicle.

Imagine if Ford would tune their PowerBoost hybrids with programmable drive modes that can be switched between performance and efficiency. They would own the entire truck market outright for the next decade if they did that even without any PHEV incorporation at all.
 

Ranger#5?

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It all comes down to driving habits. For us our Escape PHEV is a great fit. We’ve put 1000 miles on it in the last two months and used zero gas. We charge overnight on 120v when the car just sits anyway. So far the cost of electricity is under .05 cents per mile to drive. If we have a long trip then we use the gas engine at around 35-40mpg. We still have our Ranger Tremor to cover all our other needs. It’s not for everyone but it works for us and I imagine for a whole lot of other people.
Agree it comes down to personal driving habits, and use cases. We're retired and live in a small rural town. Average mileage about 3-5k per year among 4 vehicles not counting the RV, unless we take a couple long trips. We have dirt/gravel roads probably 50% of our county, and unless in a subdivision starting at least in 1970's no garages. Ours was converted to a Master Suite by last owner. We have gravel driveway, carport, and sheds and some vehicles uncovered at all times. NO electricity available to Carport or driveway for plugging in.

I'm going to fight until the bitter end to keep my ICE powered vehicles and extensive 2-stroke Vintage motorcycle collection. If we're eventually forced to give up ICE powerplants in personal vehicles, I'll seriously look into converting my Grand Cherokee and new Ranger (hopefully) to full BEV and skip incremental increases in between. There's already Ford EV Crate motors for sale and GM has 1 or 2 conversion kits out there too.

Of course if I can't drive anymore or am pushing Daisies when the ICE ban fully kicks in it's a moot point :dance:
 

ssjx7squall

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I'm aware of that too, but the fact remains this topic is like beating a dead horse. Our American lifestyle is based on freedom of movement as we please, when we please in our own personal transportation. Mass transit is a non-starter as a primary transportation mode for a majority of our population and using the carrot with subsidies hasn't moved the needle in 50+ years. That is pretty self-evident based on decades of living reality to many of us. The only thing that MAY change behaviors on this would be taking away all our other options. That would be a sad day indeed.
Back to 6G Ranger topics for me...
If we don’t adapt and grow then our lifestyle is worth nothing
 

MJE

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unless in a subdivision starting at least in 1970's no garages. Ours was converted to a Master Suite by last owner. We have gravel driveway, carport, and sheds and some vehicles uncovered at all times. NO electricity available to Carport or driveway for plugging in.
Your situation sounds similar to mine should we no longer have ICE vehicles & have to go full BEV. 1970s subdivision, the houses that do have front garages are larger 2 story homes. But because at the time a larger bungalow was enough of a move up for people coming out of post war housing, you have back alleys with detached garages. Which is fine, there are ways around it.

People will pull their power from the alley into the garage with a main panel then trench in a sub panel in the house (Now overhead power lines come into the house & the garage is run with one circuit for lights & an outlet off that).

Not an impossible change to make, I could rip up my patio & eventually the house’s electrical will all need replacing anyways. But cost wise, not one that‘ll happen tomorrow.
 

Ranger#5?

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If we don’t adapt and grow then our lifestyle is worth nothing
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Change just for the sake of change is a fool's errand. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Mass transit in America is not a preferable choice for anyone who has better options and no amount of wishful thinking will change this reality.
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