Induction Service!

[Lion77]

Good case for synthetic oils and paper air filters changed regularly. It's almost always a maintenance issue and GDI engines just require that extra rigorous maintenance. I'm still up in the air about the real necessity of induction services though.

I wonder how many GDI engines have issues because people fail to install the air filter correctly, use sub-standard filters, don't change their filters regularly or use K&N / AFE Dry types which let in far more particulates than paper filters.

I stated this before, but had an 07 Focus ST back in college I got used for cheap (paid cash). Nothing special, just had a Duratec 2.3L NA engine that was port injected. I was young and dumb, so I bought a K&N fender well intake as the factory "filter for life" was clogged and needed replaced.

That was at 104k miles. By 140k miles the intake runner valves (changed the intake trackt length for low or high rpm) wore out as Ford just used plastic bushings, so theyd wear and rattle / not seat right (well-known issue).

Replaced the intake manifold, lo and below that Port Injected intake was filthy! It was full of grit and oil built up all over, including the intake valves. Port injection didn't eliminate gumming up, but I'm sure it would have been worse had it been DI.

So don't assume port or dual injection will save you from buildup, as it does occur on PI / dual injection engines as well, just not as quickly.

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[Lion77]

The biggest sticking point for me has always been, why does not a single manual that I know of for GDI engines call for induction cleaning: Scheduled Maintenance - Scheduled Maintenance

You would think that if it was that big of an issue, Ford should be specifying "Induction Cleaning" every x miles for y conditions, just like they do for everything else. Sure, every OE is going to always advise you use what's in their manual, it's about liability and known good quantities and in many cases I don't disagree. OE oils and filters are always a safe bet.

My wife and I have a 2018 CX-9, as far as I know, ALL of the Sky Active engine variants are GDI, not dual / multi-point injection. We have 115k on it now and it runs as good as the day we got it. Engine is very responsive, makes great torque, STILL gets above the EPA rated fuel economy like my Mazda 3 (both cars beat the numbers). The RR is our 3rd "fun car". Just had the first oil change at 1,800 miles to get the factory silicone contaminants out and switch over to Ford's full synthetic.

What do I do for maintenance in the Mazda's?

1. Change the oil regularly using only Mazda's Moly 5W-30, the ONLY factory oil for that car (full synthetic).
2. Use Mazda's OE oil filters.
3. Use Mazda's OE air filter and change it regularly.
4. Been applying TriboTEX since 10k at 30k intervals just like I do with oil changes.
5. Typically, we just use 87 in that vehicle but do use 91 / 93 on trips or when loading it down. I've never had issues with pinging even when fully laden with family / luggage.

I go 5k oil change intervals on the turbo engine and have no detectable oil consumption over the 5k interval. Going to try pushing to 7k based on a recent UOA that suggests I can go out to 6~7k which is what the factory oil life indicator predicts (should have done the UOA long time ago, just didn't have time). Never done an induction service and the Mazda dealer has not once asked about that, but they have about every other fluid, including trans, coolant, air filters, spark plugs, cabin air, rear diff and brake fluid.

With the RR, I may do induction cleaning every 30k, not that bad of a cost, but I think 15k is excessive, especially given the real-world performance I've experienced with Mazda's Sky Active GDI engines (both NA and Turbo variants). I'm not seeing how Ford's EcoBoost 3.0L differs that dramatically in terms of actual susceptibility and I'm not yet convinced it matters when everything else is maintained.

If I have any issues with our Mazda's that require disassembly on the intake side, I'll be sure to bore scope the intake especially on the CX-9, but I'm hesitant to mess with it unless I have an actual issue as the factory maintenance seems to be working just fine and Mazda's owner's manual nor the dealer have recommended an induction cleaning service.

 

[Lion77]

Strangely, I can't even find fuel system cleaner in the manual. That I would have expected to be in there as periodic maintenance, but its not!

 

[rocsteady]

Woked for a dealership from 1992 through 2006 (we had Pontiac, Jeep, and Isuzu SUVs) and I recall never finding any carbon buildup on intakes and throttle bodies when people drove their vehicles a little harder. It was the ones who drove like they would be trying to keep the "eco" light on in today's vehicles, i.e. just very light throttle all the time. Not sure if it relates to the GDI engine talked about here though but it seems it would be in the same vein. Driving it a little harder, not being afraid to get into the throttle regularly has always seemed to keep things cleaner than the alternative in my experience.

 

[Lion77]

I stand corrected: Engine Problems: Skyactiv Major Carbon Build-up | Mazda World Forum

Seems to me to be highly driving condition and maintenance dependent. Might be worth it every 30k-ish as preventative. Maybe every 100k I'll do the walnut blasting method, but that's more expensive and time consuming, so I would consider that more like par to of a 100k maintenance overhaul.

 

[rocsteady]

I stand corrected: Engine Problems: Skyactiv Major Carbon Build-up | Mazda World Forum

Seems to me to be highly driving condition and maintenance dependent. Might be worth it every 30k-ish as preventative. Maybe every 100k I'll do the walnut blasting method, but that's more expensive and time consuming, so I would consider that more like par to of a 100k maintenance overhaul.

Very interesting. Seems very logical that without fuel spraying over the valves that this buildup could take place. I think I'll add the service recommended in the article to my "to do" list every 10K or so. Thanks for the info.

 

[Lion77]

Also wanted to add this to the discussion: About - TOP TIER™

Common sense practices and maintenance:

1. Regularly change the oil (and filter) and stick to OE, especially full synthetics which tend to have lower vaporization and deposits. The purity of the base oil matters as much as the susceptibility to vaporization. Keeping these well controlled will limit carbon buildup.

2. Stick to OE paper air filters and change regularly. This is by the far the biggest source of contamination in the intake and upper cylinder group, bar none. If you want more flow for performance, the only real solution is to use a CAI with a larger conical filter like heavy duty trucks use.

3. TopTier fuels will contain less low-quality additives and impurities that cause accelerated carbon buildup. Try to stick to top tier fuels. I've been using them in my Mazda's since new and may be why they still run so well even without the fuel induction cleaning when combined with all the other maintenance.

4. I personally use DLC coatings at 30k intervals on my turbo engines and 40k intervals on the 3 since it's NA. It enhances compression and oil control through the rings - cylinder wall interface once formed, especially on older higher mileage engines it reduces oil consumption, thus it WILL aid in minimizing carbon buildup on the intake valves as I believe that Oil is the main source of the carbon deposits, not the gasoline. We all know what oil coking does to bearings and oil galleys....you want as good of a ring seal as possible and that is one advance of DLC coatings: Informational - Science / History Behind In Situ Hydrogenated DLC Coatings for ICE and Trans Applications | Ranger6G - 2024+ Ranger & Raptor Forum, News, Owners, Community (6th Gen)

5. Periodic fuel induction cleaning service. I'd imagine as per the above, periodically performed, it can eliminate the possibility of significant buildup over time to the point that it becomes an issue. I'll be adding this to my other regular maintenance / good practices.

6. Avoid short trips if you can. Sometimes, I'll do a loop just to make sure the engine comes fully up to temp! May not be practical for everyone, but some can be picky.

 

[Rabbit9]

Carbon buildup??? Use the skinny pedal, and 93 octane, do regular maintenance, change plugs at least twice as fast as recommended and everything will work as it should. At the end of the day people baby their vehicles to much now. I'm not saying beat your vehicle but... every once in a while at least floor it!! With torque management, knock sensors, and how everything communicates together you won't hurt it. I haven't had a vehicle with any carbon issue. If your scared run a catch can. From built Fords, Hemis, and LS junk. Like Nike said Just Floor It!! I think lol

I tend to live by the old adage, “Drive it like you stole it!”. I am relentless when it comes to maintenance and maintaining my vehicles, but I expect them to go all out, all the time.

 

[rocsteady]

Ford dealer here in Washington, NJ recommended the induction service every 20K miles. This was off of their dealer/manufacturer combined recommended service interval chart. I neglected to ask how much it will cost though.

 

[SolarWinds]

Ford dealer here in Washington, PA recommended the induction service every 20K miles. This was off of their dealer/manufacturer combined recommended service interval chart. I neglected to ask how much it will cost though.

Just want to point out that at the top it says "local area dealer recommendations". The Ford service schedule does not call for a lot of this. According to Ford, you don't need to do trans / diff service until 150k

Obviously the extra service isn't going to hurt anything, but the money would be better spent on a catch can.

 

[rocsteady]

Just want to point out that at the top it says "local area dealer recommendations". The Ford service schedule does not call for a lot of this. According to Ford, you don't need to do trans / diff service until 150k

Obviously the extra service isn't going to hurt anything, but the money would be better spent on a catch can.

Yeah, that's why I described it as a "dealer/manufacturer combined recommendation," as in some from Ford, others from the dealer I had assumed. I like the catch can idea though. This is the first vehicle in a while that I didn't put one on immediately.

 

[Deleted member 9086]

Ford dealer here in Washington, PA recommended the induction service every 20K miles. This was off of their dealer/manufacturer combined recommended service interval chart. I neglected to ask how much it will cost though.

About $250-275.00.???

 

[Lion77]

My friend did his first induction service at 130k on his 2021 Explorer ST. My wife's 2018 CX-9 has yet to have an induction service, and that car runs very well, gets its rated fuel economy, is very responsive etc. Again, I do all the other maintenance.

I'm still waffling on the necessity of doing it so frequently. I think the most would be ever 30k and anything more than that is a bit excessive. With all of the other maintenance applied, including sticking to OE paper filters regularly changed, I don't see massive carbon buildup occurring.

Consider that carbon buildup is not very much a byproduct of the normal combustion process (from gasoline). It's primarily from oil consumption. Oil that gets vaporized and also oil that the control rings don't scrape off the cylinder walls (also why proper breaking for ring seal is important when new).

Catch can will obviously help collect some of the vaporized oil droplets, however they are typically highly diluted with fuel and water, so I'm of the opinion based on my working knowledge and personal experiences with GDI engines in higher mileage Mazda's that most of the buildup is from 1. using lower quality oil 2. extended drain intervals 3. people putting in K&N's / AEM dry type filters that allow high contamination of the intake. 4. Frequent short trips that do not allow the engine to come up to temp.

Most of my driving is NOT short trips, typically the minimum is about 18-20 miles, most of the time it's about 30+, that could be a big factor in my experiences in addition to my rigorous maintenance. To be clear, I'm not saying K&N's / AEM's etc. don't have a use, but I think they should be limited to road course race use, not street cars nor off-road where contamination is very high (espeically off-road trucks). Paper filters just do a MUCH better job and filtering out particulates and their dust capacity is about 3x higher, so they clog a lot slower.

Filtration is BIG on GDI engines since there's no fuel washing to compensate for deficiencies elswhere in the system.

 

[Lion77]

Thought of another example, this one a Ford Escape. My pops (in his mid 60's now adn recently retired) has a 2013 Ford Escape Titanium with the 2.0L Ecoboost, that engine in GDI, no dual injection as this is a Gen 1 2.0L EB I4. Has 160k+ now, he's never done an induction service, and that car DOES see frequent short trips, just to town, about 5-7 miles away where my stepmother still works locally. Until he got his new CX-90 that's now the garage queen, the Escape was garage kept.

No CELS ever, runs fine, gets rated mileage etc. AC went out last summer...cost him 2k, but no major mechanical issues, just normal stuff like brakes, tires. Could it benefit from induction service? I'm sure it might help in terms of making peak power, but if it's down on power it's not noticeable to him or me in a "seat of the pants dyno". Still runs great, no odd idle etc.

Doesn't use any measurable amount of oil either over the 5k intervals. Again, he's always run factory paper air filters and factory oil filters, changed regularly, changed oil regularly and used full synthetics (5k intervals on that car with Mobil 1), changed plugs at suggested intervals etc. and runs premium fuel. He does use AMSOIL PI fuel system cleaner periodically to help clean the injectors, but that's not going to clean intake valves.

So that's three daily drivers I know of with GDI engines, two are higher mileage and no issues. I may do the induction service on the RR at some point, but I'm still looking at data to really determine how often, I just don't see anything more frequently than 30k at most being necessary especially considering the body of evidence (just how many GDI engines are actually out on the road) AND the fact that it's not part of normal service. I'm thinking of treating it more in line with coolant change intervals, 100k, then every 60k after.

Frequent short trips might be something to consider, if you do a lot of trips 5-10 mi or less, may be an issue over time, but then again, my pop's Escape seems to defy that! Lots of mixed data and all the GDI issues, like everything else, are just a small portion of actual people with issues.

Tens of millions of GDI engines driving around and a few thousand with issues always aggregate on forums to vent / problem solve. Kinda like 5.0L's in the S550 mustang's with out of round cylinders. On the forums you'd think Ford couldn't make a non-defective 5.0L, but their actual failure rate was 0.5% (all problems collectively, including ones easier to fix like a bad gasket etc).

 

[rocsteady]

I was watching a video about the ZO6 Corvette and came across this quote that I thought was pertinent to our discussion here, "Another consideration is carbon buildup from DI systems and according to the engineers, this is less of a problem assuming you are driving this car at its limits and not just cold starting the car every once in a while in the garage."
(SavageGeese on YouTube - 2023 Corvette C8 ZO6 / Making Cars Great Again)

Granted, most of us are probably not driving our Ranger Raptors like a ZO6 on a track day, staying up at the top of the rev range for prolonged periods, but I think the point transfers: get on it regularly, enjoy the power that it has to offer and you'll be doing the engine a favor. That's the way I'm going to explain it to my girlfriend anyway. "Spirited driving" if not downright Hooniganism for us Ken Block fans.

Below is a screen shot of the time in the video where the quote above is plucked.

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