Poll: Stock or Pro Cal (What's your experience, Good, Bad, Meh?)

[Fordfknranger]

FP has worked with Livernois in the past, may be possible they are using their base sw platform (i.e., the programmer is a private label), however that doesn't mean they developed the ecu calibration. FP uses a lot of different vendors and suppliers for hardware that meets their requirements, sometimes its an off the shelf part with their own modifications like the Bronco Method 703s other times its from scratch.

LM wrote the tune. They wouldn't be on it if they didn't. It's just a mellow tune compared to their normal one. They litteraly told me with my previous vehicle I had tuned with them.

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[Lion77]

Like I said, private label: 2021-2023 FORD F-150 5.0L COYOTE TUNER | LPP631167 | Livernois Motorsports

Not arguing the Livernois programmer is identical to the Ford Performance programmer. But that's just the delivery platform, not the ECU cal itself. It's just a private label and has nothing to do with what goes into the file loaded on the ECU any more than using a universal JTAG programmer from brand x affects WHAT .hex file you're loading into the uC. It's just the delivery platform.

According to all the information available, Ford Performance does their own calibrations to their own specifications, some of their engineers are some of the same people who actually worked on the OE designs. The reason for their development is obviously durability. The goal is not to push to the absolute limits; the goal is to provide a safe level of improvement by getting rid of the requirement for lower fuel octanes which allows more aggressive timing / fueling.

ECU's are blind, they don't know when you switch from 87 to 91 or 93 or back down from 93 to 87 until you actually start driving the car and knock occurs. Mild knock is normal at the edge of optimal timing, but heavy knock is damaging.

The problem arises with scalable ECU cal's that you can only advance timing so much on 91 while having enough margin of safety to quickly scale timing back if the driver suddenly re-fuels with 87 (switches fuel grades) because the ECU can't know.

So basically, they take a stock ECU cal and get rid of that need to scale and require you to run 91 or higher, so you don't need that extra safety factor in timing advance that the scalable stock cal requires.

It's likely Livernois does this same thing. I've used their cal's in the past and what I was told is that Ford Performance sometimes works with them on projects (i.e., they use their facility) or they do joint ventures. Ford Performance also has access to OE engineering and testing facilities, but I dont believe Livernois does as they are a contractor for FP.

So, I still trust the FP Cal more than the Livernois cal because 1. the warranty and 2. the history of FP reliability. They may be more "watered down" compared to the aftermarket, but they are also the ones with cars that last decades in some cases like the original OE cal.

Back when I had a Mustang Ecoboost (2015), my first car, I have a Livernois 93 cal. Ended up pinging and cracking a spark plug insulator that slid down over the electrode, could have trashed that engine. So I sold the Livernois cal, went to Ford Performance and never had any issue, no pinging, no damage, nothing.

On my 2016 GT, I only ever went with Ford Performance and had its dealer installed for warranty. So, I can say with confidence that it's not "just a watered down Livernois tune". I'm not suggesting Livernois cal's are garbage, but they push things too far in my opinion to be worth the trouble unless it's a car that's 100% paid off and a 3rd vehicle so if you throw a rod...it's not a huge problem for you.

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk the durability of my RR even though it's a 3rd vehicle. FP is about as much as I'm willing to push mostly because of their long history of reliability compared to everyone else and the improvements are very noticeable, more so in the transmission tuning than anywhere else.

At the end of the day, the truck has Ford Performance stamped all over it (stickers, badges etc.). Ford Performance has done testing and validation on this ECU cal, regardless of where it originated from, provides you with a 36k / 3yr supplemental warranty AND so long as any issue that arises is not caused by the FP Cal, regular powertrain still applies (i.e., a cam phasor fails, that's a known issue with Ecoboost V6's of all displacements).

At the end of the day, it's still a Ford Performance cal regardless of Livernois involved, however much or little it is.

 

[AlpineBike]

One great thing about the Ford Performance Tune is that your not replacing the vehicle’s ECU. Aftermarket tuners want you to spend money on a replacement ECU with no warranty.

That’s because none of the aftermarket guys have been able to crack the OEM encryption.
So they need to sell you an older model and less secure ECU that they can manipulate.

 

[Lion77]

That's also because Ford Performance is a division of Ford Motor Co. As I stated before, they have direct access to OE engineering department.

It is why legally, so long as there is no direct cause of a failure related to the ECU cal post calibration, the factory warranty applies. However it does offer them an out just in case the cal causes mass failures at some unknown time that testing did not reveal. Technically, the exact same thing applies to the OE cal.

If your turbo fails at 70k and you only had a factory powertrain warranty.... regardless of whether the factory ECU cal had some part in causing it (outside of assembly or mfg. defect), your out of luck.

 

[Fordfknranger]

Like I said, private label: 2021-2023 FORD F-150 5.0L COYOTE TUNER | LPP631167 | Livernois Motorsports

Look at the programmer, identical to the Ford Performance programmer. More or less, they are using the base logic and altering it to their specifications which is why people say it's "watered down".

The reason is obviously durability. The goal is not to push to the absolute limits, the goal is to provide a safe level of improvement by getting rid of the requirement for lower fuel octanes which allows more aggressive timing / fueling.

ECU's are blind, they don't know when you switch from 87 to 91 or 93 or back down from 93 to 87 until you actually start driving the car and knock occurs. Mild knock is normal at the edge of optimal timing, but heavy knock is damaging.

The problem arises with scalable ECU cal's that you can only advance timing so much on 91 while having enough margin of safety to quickly scale timing back if the driver suddenly re-fuels with 87 (switches fuel grades) because the ECU can't know.

So basically, they take a stock ECU cal and get rid of that need to scale and require you to run 91 or higher, so you don't need that extra safety factor in timing advance that the scalable stock cal requires.

It's likely Livernois does this same thing. I've used their cal's in the past and what I was told is that Ford Performance sometimes works with them on projects (i.e., they use their facility) or they do joint ventures. Ford Performance also has access to OE engineering but I dont believe Livernois does.

So, I still trust the FP Cal more than the Livernois cal because 1. the warranty and 2. the history of FP reliability. They may be more "watered down" compared to the aftermarket, but they are also the ones with cars that last decades in some cases like the original OE cal.

Back when I had a Mustang Ecoboost (2015), my first car, I have a Livernois 93 cal. Ended up pinging and cracking a spark plug insulator that slid down over the electrode, could have trashed that engine. So I sold the Livernois cal, went to Ford Performance and never had any issue, no pinging, no damage, nothing.

On my 2016 GT, I only ever went with Ford Performance and had its dealer installed for warranty. So, I can say with confidence that it's not "just a watered down Livernois tune". I'm not suggesting Livernois cal's are garbage, but they push things too far in my opinion to be worth the trouble unless it's a car that's 100% paid off and a 3rd vehicle so if you throw a rod...it's not a huge problem for you.

Personally, I wouldn't want to risk the durability of my RR even though it's a 3rd vehicle. FP is about as much as I'm willing to push mostly because of their long history of reliability compared to everyone else and the improvements are very noticeable, more so in the transmission tuning than anywhere else.

At the end of the day, the truck has Ford Performance stamped all over it (stickers, badges etc.). Ford Performance has done testing and validation on this ECU cal, regardless of where it originated from, provides you with a 36k / 3yr supplemental warranty AND so long as any issue that arises is not caused by the FP Cal, regular powertrain still applies (i.e., a cam phasor fails, that's a known issue with Ecoboost V6's of all displacements).

At the end of the day, it's still a Ford Performance cal regardless of Livernois involved, however much or little it is.

Because fp includes a fancy cover? That exact tuner from LM was out way before FP even sold them. Contact LM and ask them for yourself.

 

[Fordfknranger]

That's also because Ford Performance is a division of Ford Motor Co. As I stated before, they have direct access to OE engineering department.

It is why legally, so long as there is no direct cause of a failure related to the ECU cal post calibration, the factory warranty applies. However it does offer them an out just in case the cal causes mass failures at some unknown time that testing did not reveal. Technically, the exact same thing applies to the OE cal.

If your turbo fails at 70k and you only had a factory powertrain warranty.... regardless of whether the factory ECU cal had some part in causing it (outside of assembly or mfg. defect), your out of luck.

I wouldn't trust any warranty. Even Ford themselves try and get out of everything. Ask me. I've had it already 2 months into ownership.
I bought my 2024 bl sas In June. I had the driver running light hang on. The only way I could get it to turn off other than timing out was unplug it. Well water came out of the plug. I called Ford they sent a tech out. I just popped the hood and she was pointing out my grille lights that had 1 wire going into the fuse box. Crazy because I only washed my Bronco 2 times. (It's a garage queen unless we go on off-road trips, I drive my gf vehicle she works from home) But she's like yeah they prob won't cover it. Since you have "aftermarket accessories". I'm like wtf the thing came with aux switches. It begs to be modded. The fender liner says lift me baby. Ford warranty is a joke. I purchased Form headlamps instead of dealing with them. They were also 2 months out on being available to get it in. ?
From all I've heard GM is just as bad or worse

 

[Lion77]

Those are all .ford addresses owned by the same parent company. Ford Motor Co. So again, if Ford Motor Co. is selling this as their own aftermarket upgrade, I have a hard time believing it's just as simple as a "watered down" Livernois tune.

Weather they used that as a starting point with changes and validations of their own or just used their software programming platform and did their own cal. I dont' think really matters. They are standing behind it with warranty, reputation and probably by far the most vehicles using these cal's compared to any other out there with very few issues.

 

[Fordfknranger]

Those are all .ford addresses owned by the same parent company. Ford Motor Co. So again, if Ford Motor Co. is selling this as their own aftermarket upgrade, I have a hard time believing it's just as simple as a "watered down" Livernois tune.

Weather they used that as a starting point with changes and validations of their own or just used their software programming platform and did their own cal. I dont' think really matters. They are standing behind it with warranty, reputation and probably by far the most vehicles using these cal's compared to any other out there with very few issues.

Not going to argue with somone that has zero background on this. How long have you been around the Eb platforms? Contact them and ask for yourself

 

[Lion77]

Dealers trying to get of warranties isn't a Ford thing, it's an EVERY mfg. thing. I've experienced it with Mazda's, Chevy's, Dodges and Fords. Dealers are all privately owned and it's a headache for them to get reimbursed for a warranty claim from the mfg., so they avoid it like the plague.

BTW, if you read carefully, I said the FP tuner was a private label. Either you didn't read that or didn't understand what that means. Private label is where you buy another company's product under an agreement to sell it as your own.

FP buys the Livernois calibration tool and sells it as their own. So it's pretty obvious that the interface software that facilitates comms between the PC system and the programmer is going to be from Livernois also. You can load any Cal on there. I'm highly skeptical it's as simple as "FP bought a watered down Livernois Cal and claimed its good".

Typically, they do their own modifications, testing and validation even if it started out from Livernois, making it a Ford product regardless of how it was developed. That's all I'm saying, but this argument is ultimately pointless because clearly, I "have zero background"....

The fact remains that it's sold under Ford and their domain as an aftermarket part from Ford Racing division of Ford Motor Co. That's good enough for me to consider it a factory hot cal. and all are licensed under Ford Performance. Livernois is not, they are a separate entity that does some contract work for FP at times and their Cal's push much harder and do not undergo as rigorous of testing, they have no warranty and at least at the time when I had a Mustang EB, they were not emissions legal either as some of those protections were removed for the sake of making more power.

As mentioned, I had issues with Livernois 93 cal, I never had any issues with the FP cal on the same car, using the same fuel grade from the same stations, so it's why I switched to FP and never looked back.

 

[Lion77]

Notice the "Ford Motor Company 2020" trademark? That's right from the installation instructions for the Pro Cal. Weather it's a private label programmer and software is completely irrelevant. Don't care and it has no bearing on what actual testing / validation / modification of the cal was done by Ford Racing or what involvement Livernois had even if they contracted Livernois to do all the actual work, it's still to their specifications and that's the point.

Like I said, doesn't matter if Livernois was contracted to do some development work, it's just not as simple as "Livernois made a watered-down Cal, Ford put their label on it and sold it verbatim". I'm an electrical engineer specializing in electrostatics, we private label parts all the time, sometimes we develop custom solutions from scratch in-house, sometimes we modify off-the-shelf components that are then private labeled under the company name (i.e., it's a custom variant of that off-the-shelf part with modifications made by the mfg. that are specific to our use case, tested and validated to our specs).

However, you slice it, whatever path FP took, it's still their Cal regardless of how much or little Livernois was involved. It meets their spec, their testing, their requirements for legal (including CARB) etc. I've spoken with Livernoise on several occasions in the past, they do contract work at times and like any business, they are going to promote that for their own sake.

But clearly "I know nothing"....it is what it is. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

[darceydo]

Got my tune installed yesterday, so far no noticeable difference. I've heard plenty about the ~200 mile adaption of the tune to the truck, do the changes come on progressiviely during this time or is it after it has fully "adapted"?

 

[Lion77]

Just some additional food for thought: EnginePerformanceTechTips.pdf

I've stated this before, they data pack the entire car (full sensor packs) to read all the data real time, not OBDII which is just 200-300mS reporting rate which is now most "tuners" do their cals.

The testing by FP is far and above what the aftermarket provides, regardless of how much Livernois is involved, they don't have a climactic wind tunnel chassis dyno like Ford does at their OE test facilities…it's a gross over simplification to say "well it's just a watered down Livernois cal" because they private labeled their programmer just like a 1,000 other companies do for electronics when that's the cheaper route vs. developing their own.

Ford claims that some of the engineers working for FP are actual OE development engineers that worked on the original vehicle. The programming platform is only one small part, the initial chassis dyno Cal is only one part, the real-world testing, validation and fine tuning is another, so is the legal / warranty coverage.

I think it's pretty correct to say that the FP Pro Cal is more or less a "Factory Hi Po Cal" and not just a "watered down Livernois Cal" just because the software delivery platform is private labeled and Livernois may have been contracted to participate / assist in some of the development work, most likely the initial chassis dyno tuning, unless we want to go down the road of saying that all of the above from Ford is just pure lies and B.S....

There seems to be conflicting information from Livernois, but the source of information I am using about Ford Performance Cal's is from Ford directly, so I'm inclined to believe them over an anonymous employee at Livernois conflating their involvement level to garner reputation for their business and simultaneously inflate their own ego to 50 psi.

When I previously spoke with Livernois years ago, what I was told is exactly what I've been saying, they sometimes work with FP who uses their facilities for some dyno testing because they have a load capable chassis dyno. I believe they do some machining work for FP crate engines / parts as well, so more or less they are part of FP's supply chain / testing facilities in addition to Ford's OE facilities like its climactic wind tunnel.

People can believe whatever they want, but I'm sticking with verifiable information from Ford about their performance division's ECU Cal development process. It's pretty clear how much more extensive it is and it's why I personally will ONLY use FP Cal's or stock.

If I had a Colorado or Taco TRD Pro it would have stayed with the factory cal. because neither offer anything beyond what it comes with (although Chevy Performance does sometimes offer CAI's / suspension mods etc., they don't offer ECU Cals). So, there you have it.

 

[Lion77]

Got my tune installed yesterday, so far no noticeable difference. I've heard plenty about the ~200 mile adaption of the tune to the truck, do the changes come on progressiviely during this time or is it after it has fully "adapted"?

Just to double check them, you can plug in your Pro Cal tool and verify the software version on the ECU.

On mine, it was noticeable from the start, more so in the transmission shift points than raw power. Power was more noticeable after a complete drive cycle (around 200 miles).

 

[Jimmyk]

disregard

 

[Jimmyk]

I Just turned 900 miles and had the Pro Cal 4 for my 2025 ranger raptor installed today.7/11/2025 .. I will keep you posted. pretty much since new I have been using 93 octane (After dealer tank) I just love this truck!!I spoke with Ford performance told me takes about 35 miles to learn. Had 70 miles from closest dealer install, got great deal 20% off with code and used my points from purchase. I paid $668.00 including install on line sent to dealer. Still driving mellow but then with a foot cramp every now and then. No warranty worries.

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