RR 3.0 Wet Belt Driven Oil Pump - issues in future?

[BLIZZARDIBLO]

I find it interesting, people defending bad engineering, and defending billions in profits of a brand, instead of defending the consumer. Comparing a steel chain with a rubber chain in oil bath, is lack of understanding of science and engineering. Also many steel chains that strech, is just because they are undersized, and cheap alloys. It is not organic to defend the interests of brands instead of the buyers and consumers. Have a major service on a engine, just for replace a 15 dolar rubber belt, and have oil intervals reduced just for keeping the rubber belt out of oxidation, is a big waste of millions liters of oil and far leaves behind the theory of fuel and environmental benefits.

Sponsored

 

[RangerDangerStranger]

bottom line, is that is a stupid idea with a capital S stupid. They've taken out indestructible part of an engine and made a questionable weak link out of it. You can throw all the space age engineering jargon another garbage at this all you want, fact is this is a dumb idea. It should've never been done and people will have a failure where it wouldn't have failed, had it bern a chain. Period. Was an idiot idea born in some desktop engineers mind to save 50 bucks per engine and it's gonna cost quite a few people not everybody but quite a few. Because it will fail where a chain would not have. and they have already been early failures where wouldn't have failed had it been a chain. And the older the belts get the more they fail not to mention the fact that it's now 150,000 mile serviceable which is not the life of a modern engine should be more like 300,000 miles, if you take care of it.

 

[Lion77]

And yet ya'll still bought a Ford truck, bawhahahahaah!!! I'm still wrestling with the logic of "belts are crappy engineering and will fail just because, so I'm going to go ahead and buy a Ford truck instead of another brand that uses chain driven oil pumps...."

Not everyone has a 2.3L, there are lots with the 2.7L V6, lots of 3.0L in the Raptors. I'm just scratching my head as to why so many of us dumb people are buying a truck whose engine is just going to fail at 100k or 150k because of the wet belt driven oil pump trojan horse. Watch, the 2.3L is going to be next on the conversion list or maybe the 25's already are and you just don't know it....

Here's one that will really cook your noodle in the words of the Oracle from the Matrix. We gave my daughter the wife's Prius C as her first car. The serpentine belt has NEVER been changed on it, it's a 2012 (for those struggling with the math, that's about 14 years old now). The car now has passed 195k miles on it and it's obviously a dry belt, not oil bathed, which last 2x to 3x longer than dry belts and yet it's still going strong and looks freakishly good for a belt with 195k miles on it.

In the words of Luke Skywalker, THATS IMPOSSIBLE! NOOOO!!!

Think about the logic of this. Ford, whose business now lives and dies exclusively on their truck performance / reliability / cost, whose goal is to be the "porsche of off-road" and still sells a very considerable amount of V8's and 2.7L V6's in their F-150's and many other vehicles as alternate engine options (not including the MANY 3.0L's in Explorer ST's, Lincoln Aviators etc.), is going use a belt driven oil pump that has a high probability of early catastrophic failure.

And that's going to do exactly what for their customer retention once word gets out all their engines are going to fail around 100k to 150k? There are applications I do NOT think wet belts are suitable, like high load applications, but oil pumps are NOT high load applications, they are rather low stress.

Cams and drivetrain applications (CVT's) are applications I completely agree that wet belts are not suitable unless the goal is planned obsolescence. Oil pumps (mechanical or electric)? Not so much. It's like the lawnmower application, low stress, so they are in effect a high durability part in the appropriate application.

Just some food for thought: GM Powertrain Engineer on Why The Oil Pump Belt for 3.0L Duramax??

At least Ford's 2.7L / 3.0L pump drive belts are in the FRONT! If my EB 3.0L makes it to 200k without OTHER major failures that seem to be more common (cam phasors, turbo bearing failures or cracked heads due to bad castings), I'll have the transmission pulled and rebuilt with GPZ friction plates and then do the oil pump belt on the front, replace the turbo's and hoses, then drive it another 150k.

 

[Lion77]

2018 2.7L Ecoboost Teardown (first year 2.7L with belt driven oil pump) @ 96k miles

2018 Ecoboost 2.7L with belt driven oil pump, belt looks fine at 96k miles, failed for other reasons unrelated to the oil pump and belt. Despite the normal cracks in the outer layer, you're telling me it won't go at LEAST another 50k to 100k had the rod bearing not killed the engine itself?

Every serpentine belt I've ever had showed tons of surface cracks rather early on, spent most of its life like that. Just the nature of belts. As long as the structure is holding together as intended, surface cracking doesn't mean failure, just normal wear and tear.

Usually, the oil pump belts I've seen that failed, it's the teeth that go, like the 1.0L EB the same mechanic tore down. The belt didn't snap, the teeth sheared off, don't know why, maybe the harmonic balancer had issues and seized up on that motor, could be a mfg. defect just like a bad bearing, or lack of maintenance.

 

[Jason B]

I find it interesting, people defending bad engineering, and defending billions in profits of a brand, instead of defending the consumer. Comparing a steel chain with a rubber chain in oil bath, is lack of understanding of science and engineering. Also many steel chains that strech, is just because they are undersized, and cheap alloys. It is not organic to defend the interests of brands instead of the buyers and consumers. Have a major service on a engine, just for replace a 15 dolar rubber belt, and have oil intervals reduced just for keeping the rubber belt out of oxidation, is a big waste of millions liters of oil and far leaves behind the theory of fuel and environmental benefits.

If you, or anyone else wants to prove their point, present the data. Show data where this wet belt oil pump is a problem. I want to see actual data of fail rates from the last 8 years and millions of vehicles with this engine.

This isn't you dads rubber belt used on his lawn mower. Material sciences have advanced tremendously in the last 20 years.

"Trust me bro" and personal opinions of this being a weak link just doesn't cut it.

 

[Lion77]

I lied, this thread was just too good not to share on the 2.7L "wet belt of doom":

Highest mileage 2.7? | Page 2 | F150gen14 -- 2021+ Ford F-150, Tremor, Raptor Forum (14th Gen) | News, Owners, Community, Discussions

"Hello. I have 215,000 miles on my 2018 2.7 plugs and coils replaced one time. Gulf semi synthetic every 5,000 miles. Only other 18+ that Ive seen with 200k miles was a post of someone out west that took thier boy up to Montana to pick up one that was even more miles than mine and they seemed real happy with the truck."

This one really gets me, 2019's have wet belts just like 2018+:

Mileage Impossible | 2019 F150 with the 2.7 motor 542k | Facebook

2018 2.7 with high miles - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

 

[MasterCylinder]

I find it interesting, people defending bad engineering, and defending billions in profits of a brand, instead of defending the consumer. Comparing a steel chain with a rubber chain in oil bath, is lack of understanding of science and engineering. Also many steel chains that strech, is just because they are undersized, and cheap alloys. It is not organic to defend the interests of brands instead of the buyers and consumers. Have a major service on a engine, just for replace a 15 dolar rubber belt, and have oil intervals reduced just for keeping the rubber belt out of oxidation, is a big waste of millions liters of oil and far leaves behind the theory of fuel and environmental benefits.

I can't help but agree on one hand, however, what we never stop to consider or see is the outrageous governemnt heavy hand involvement, weather we see just a stupid idea and or design and why I don't/can't blame car manufacturers for every little pea picking thing. I've worked on thousands, bad mouthed many a engineer for some idiotic changes in my time on this side of the dirt and for good reason, belts (no matter the construction) in oil is just one.. They are controlled by governemnt. Crash Safety Standards, Lighting and Visibility, Emissions and Aerodynamics, Pedestrian Safety Features, Size and Dimension Limits, Functional Compliance Features, CAFE Standards, Greenhouse Gas Limits, Technology Mandates, Compliance Flexibilities, Design & Manufacturing Impact, Emission Limits and Standards, Greenhouse Gas (GHG) Regulations, Sustainability Requirements in Manufacturing, State-Level Variances and California Standards, Reporting and Verification, Penalties and Market Access Risks, USMCA Tariffs, Supplier Network Changes, Cost and Price Effects, Compliance Complexity, Global Trade Volatility, Technology in Trade Compliance, there are others. Under all these headings are multiple and many compliance, rules, laws, guidelines to adhere to. Who pays for all this, the consumer. In fact so many rules and regulations apply today, that manufactures can't meet them all, they just write it off as operational expense, government pockets the money, but we still pay the estimated 15 plus billions in fines they have to eat. It has boiled down to government running the corporate show and we are the frogs in the proverbial boiling pot, through regulations, laws and guidelines. So some seemingly stupid engineering stunts and ideas do come about that to us, seems like nothing but a money/profit action, actually do not. Granted we become the testing phase/rats of these engineering blurbs in the end but I look to blame the source which is governemnt not some seemingly intentionally malicious behavior of the manufactures to make more money because many times these blunders cost them big in recalls and possible loss in sales! If they don't make money they go bye, bye. We buy what we want to buy for whatever reason we buy and therefore take the risk in it's intended operation and longevity be whatever it is in the end. Another case in point, electronics like TV's. There was a time a repairman could come to your house to fix your acting up TV, they were actually a part of the furniture in the house by design with nice wood cabinets etc.... Today they are cheap throw a ways. If this does prove disastrous you can bet a chain system will be in the works as a replacement if not from manufactures the aftermarket will pick it up. Look at all the rubber used in and on an engine that does last, Belts, hoses, gaskets, seals, valve stem seals etc.... Those things went through many changes. I remember when a rear oil seal was a mix of materials impregnated rope type that had to be installed just right to make it hold up. So it's said to be designed for the lifetime of the engine, who's lifetime, lol. Today that lifetime is said to be 150000-200000. There is no indestructible engine/car and there many parts that fail and or break. We make the choice, belts in oil or buy a different manufacturers truck/car. Oh hell ya, we want to get what we pay for but sadly because of governemnt and the 50's and 60's era of tanks for cars is long past, so are the 3500-4500 price tag average, were just along for the ride, pun intended! Ranger On!

 

[RangerDangerStranger]

Amazes me that people will defend anyyhing. Please explain to me how moving from a steel chain to a flexible belt soaked in 200* oil improves reliability? Ford would not of done it if....Ofcourse you won't see the failures till LATER IN THE ENGINES LIFE. That's exactly what Ford is counting on, well out of warrenty. probably about a $2000 job to replace it just the belt. When the engine gets older, is a soft belt soaked in 200* dirty oil likely to fail? Oh, you better believe it will. if the 2.3 had a wet belt it would of figured into my decision to buy it or not. Terrible design. i'd say probably ok to 60k miles, where the normal chain would simply never fail. People will defend anything, Amazes me.

 

[Jason B]

Amazes me that people will defend anyyhing. Please explain to me how moving from a steel chain to a flexible belt soaked in 200* oil improves reliability? Ford would not of done it if....Ofcourse you won't see the failures till LATER IN THE ENGINES LIFE. That's exactly what Ford is counting on, well out of warrenty. probably about a $2000 job to replace it just the belt. When the engine gets older, is a soft belt soaked in 200* dirty oil likely to fail? Oh, you better believe it will. if the 2.3 had a wet belt it would of figured into my decision to buy it or not. Terrible design. i'd say probably ok to 60k miles, where the normal chain would simply never fail. People will defend anything, Amazes me.

Nobody needs to prove anything to you.
Y'all are the ones saying it's a bad design. YOU prove it.

 

[RangerDangerStranger]

Nobody needs to prove anything to you.
Y'all are the ones saying it's a bad design. YOU prove it.

The sky is blue, water is wet the earth os generally a sphere . soft rubber belts in 200* oil are not as reliable or steel chains in oil. Moving from a steel chain in oil, which is good for it, to a rubber belt and oil is a bad idea. If you don't agree in there is something defective in your thinking capability. Out.

 

[Lion77]

2018 Ford F-150 for sale in Comstock Park, MI - CARFAX (2.7L with 252k miles)

2019 Ford F-150 XL for sale in Fairfield, OH - CARFAX (2.7L with 280k miles)

2019 Ford F-150 Lariat for sale in Cleveland, GA - CARFAX (2.7L with 228k miles)

2019 Ford F-150 XLT for sale in Marietta, OH - CARFAX (2.7L with 229k miles)

2018 Ford F-150 Lariat for sale in Asheville, NC - CARFAX (2.7L with 209k miles)

2018 Ford F-150 XL for sale in Paducah, KY - CARFAX (2.7L 208k miles)

2018 Ford F-150 XLT for sale in Dodgeville, WI - CARFAX (2.7L with 205k miles)

2019 Ford F-150 XLT for sale in Youngstown, OH - CARFAX (2.7L with 205k miles)

And that's JUST in my little area with a few zip codes I'm familiar with. There's a good mix of 5.0L's, 3.5L's and 2.7L's all with high mileages in the 200~250k range.

Window stickers are available with each link on the dealer's site too if anyone wants to say those are anything but 2.7L. All have belt driven oil pumps since it's 2018+ just like that crazy high mileage 2019 2.7L with 540k on the facebook post!

Seems to be the norm that you can expect them to last around 200k~250k miles with their unreliable oil pump belts, exploding turbos and grenading 10-speeds.

Seriously, stop buying unreliable Ford vehicles with oil pump belts and none of us will be arguing with you.

 

[Aemonn]

I think the disconnect is some folks here are talking about mileage, others are talking about time.

200k miles on a 7 year old vehicle vs 200k miles on a 15 year old vehicle are two different things.

My personal thoughts are that something with the computers / electronics on these vehicles are going to cause a headache before the wet belt if we're talking 10-15+ years of ownership. And honestly, computers, wiring issues, voltage fuckery can be just as, or more expensive to diagnose and correct than cracking open that engine.

I agree, yes, a chain would have been a stronger solution. I don't think anyone here is refuting that. The difference is in if that matters and how much.

I bought a raptor, so that should show how much that matters to me. I've already given up on the thought of keeping a vehicle for over 10 years without expecting major repairs. These aren't the vehicles of 20 years ago.

If i wanted economical reliability with low maintenance I would have bought a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic. And honestly, even those cars aren't what they were in the late 90's and early 2000's.

 

[danmoochie]

The sky is blue, water is wet the earth os generally a sphere . soft rubber belts in 200* oil are not as reliable or steel chains in oil. Moving from a steel chain in oil, which is good for it, to a rubber belt and oil is a bad idea. If you don't agree in there is something defective in your thinking capability. Out.

nice try, but who said it was soft rubber? Its Kevlar LOL...

 

[daytoncarter]

I think the disconnect is some folks here are talking about mileage, others are talking about time.

You've hit the nail on the head.

Half of the posters are stating: this rubber crap is going to degrade over time. In ten years you'll have pieces of an oil belt.

The other half: look! here's a 500k mi example that's 5 years old, it must be durable.

As stated before - we can all speculate, but I agree with Lion and Master, time will tell.

Heck the 2.3L MPC I bought is a fairly new engine design. It might have a catastrophic design flaw yet discovered. No way to know.

 

[RangerDangerStranger]

nice try, but who said it was soft rubber? Its Kevlar LOL...

it's not pure kevlar ,,, LOL

Sponsored