Poll: Stock or Pro Cal (What's your experience, Good, Bad, Meh?)

[RaptorPoke]

I'm liking this idea, but you'll get a flurry of opinions. Some will call it a poser move, some will love it.

R can mean anything you want though, your truck, your choice. Why can you not just put the R on there to mean Raptor? Or do 2 R's for Ranger Raptor?

I sometimes wish Ford would have put a black RR badge on the bottom right on the grille. The badge could mimic the appearance of the raptor tailgate badge. I'd understand Ford not using the red "R" to avoid confusion with the F150 Raptor R.

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[Crapblaster]

I am am mostly happy with the Procal. I didn't like the light throttle shift points. It would rev to about 4000 rpm on some shifts. So I'm using the Procal tune with stock driver demand tables.

 

[Kenbike]

I do have my Raptor button set up to shutoff Auto shutdown, funny the first few tanks after tune the feature was not working maybe due to tune being in learn mode.
I tried a 3000 rpm launch Sunday and it smoked the stock KO'3s for 4 gears!

 

[Lion77]

The Pro Cal is no joke and honestly, I believe is about as much as the stock RR powertrain can give without significantly impacting service life. I don't see 150k miles as unreasonable service life with a Pro Cal unless you drag launching it on pavement weekend after weekend (which might kill the torque locks on the 10R60).

I do a lot of highway cruising and part throttle acceleration, occasionally I do WOT pulls when terrain permits. Off-roading a few times a year. 95% of the time I'm not actually tapping into the extra power, but am enjoying using a bit more of the part throttle power regularly.

One of the tests FP lists on their tech article for their calibrations is Wind Tunnel testing of every FP Cal. They use dry hot air to induce worst case knock and test for reliability under those conditions. How many aftermarket tuners have vehicle wind tunnels that are climactically controlled and test for worst case conditions?

How many of them are looking at slip energies and times on the torque locks for durability etc? Usually it's "I make more power than the next guy and my car didn't blow up today"....drive it around in their own vehicle and call it "reliable".

I'm sorry, but that is anything but reliability testing and unless it's a built bottom end (forged Mahle rods / pistons), something that can take a lot of abuse and tuning errors, I wouldn't trust anything but OE tuning.

Built engines are built for a reason, so custom tuning makes sense there as it's tailored to a very specific hand-built one-of-a-kind application. These are mass production vehicles with variability in build to build, I'm going to trust the engineering teams that designed them!

Some people are claiming the FP Cal is "just a watered down Livernois cal", I find that hard to believe, they use Livernois programming platform and have for years, they work with Livernois on some things including custom machining work which is Livernois core business, but Livernois doesn't have the OE testing capability that FP does, they aren't data packing the ECU and collecting real-world data and they don't do nearly as much reliability testing because they simply don't have multi-million dollar test facilities like Ford does nor the team to do so (manpower resources).

See attached from Ford. From the PDF, this is of particular interest to most of us (long-term durability under extreme conditions):

So, if it's "just a watered down Livernois tune", then I guess Ford is lying about all their testing, tuning and development? The delivery platform has nothing to do with the actual calibration being loaded, how it was developed and tested etc.

I think it's pretty safe to say, from the massive amount of Ford product owners who have Ford Performance calibrations, that issues are VERY rare and I've yet to see a single one denied by warranty in the rare case it does occur AND when stuff occurs, thus far from what I personally know of (Mustang Ecoboost and GT 5.0L, Ford RR), the issues were due to a major mfg. defect that would have manifested weather it had the stock cal or FP cal, hence why it was covered under warranty.

My 2016 GT had a Stage 2 Power Pack, the driver's side catalyst went belly up at 17k miles, was covered under warranty no questions asked. Dealer didn't even bat an eye because they did the install and it was Ford's own ECU cal that had an issue, so it was assumed to be a part quality / assembly issue, not an aftermarket tuning issue.

There was a Mustang Ecoboost owner who had the Pro Cal done and engine grenaded at 10k miles (only one I ever saw on the Mustang forums with a FP cal, but LOTS of aftermarket tunes killed engines in under 30k miles). Approved long block under warranty and he re-loaded the FP cal and never heard back on any issues.

I think there was one RR owner on this forum that I know of with a blue RR that had the Pro cal, engine went belly up at 10k also, got it replaced under warranty (would have failed regardless, I forget what the cause was).

 

[jordantii]

So for piece of mind the FP Cal is probably the way to go. But do not discount the partnership between these 2 companies. I would assume that Livernois has access to ECU architecture that others don't. They have relationships with engineers that others don't. They have access to data that others don't.

I know a little bit about partnerships with a factory including Ford. I worked for a data acquisition company that was partnered with Ford Racing. They wanted us to develop instruments for their factory GrandAm race cars. We needed root level data from the CAN bus in order to achieve this. They gave us everything. We could see everything. Not just the data but how it interacted with other data. They would write new code if we needed it in order to provide them what they needed.

The amount of access we had to the engineers was instrumental in creating what Ford needed. We could also get info that we were not "supposed" to have but becuse we had personal relationships we were able to get access to it. We worked side by side with them.

When you have access to the factory over a long period of time you can just do more.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[RaptorME]

I did the download myself then just had the dealer hit install. When you download the tune file it literally says Livernois and the tuning device is theirs with a Ford rubber sleeve. I thought the FP tune was fine but it doesn't provide any benefit to 93 octane which we have. It's a meaningful increase if you get a tune for 93.

 

[Locust13CT]

Has Anyone with the Pro Cal up sized their tires? 34's or 35's. I havent tried it with mine yet but does the ProCal unit have an adjustment for tire size?

 

[Crapblaster]

The Pro Cal is no joke and honestly, I believe is about as much as the stock RR powertrain can give without significantly impacting service life. I don't see 150k miles as unreasonable service life with a Pro Cal unless you drag launching it on pavement weekend after weekend (which might kill the torque locks on the 10R60).

I do a lot of highway cruising and part throttle acceleration, occasionally I do WOT pulls when terrain permits. Off-roading a few times a year. 95% of the time I'm not actually tapping into the extra power, but am enjoying using a bit more of the part throttle power regularly.

One of the tests FP lists on their tech article for their calibrations is Wind Tunnel testing of every FP Cal. They use dry hot air to induce worst case knock and test for reliability under those conditions. How many aftermarket tuners have vehicle wind tunnels that are climactically controlled and test for worst case conditions?

How many of them are looking at slip energies and times on the torque locks for durability etc? Usually it's "I make more power than the next guy and my car didn't blow up today"....drive it around in their own vehicle and call it "reliable".

I'm sorry, but that is anything but reliability testing and unless it's a built bottom end (forged Mahle rods / pistons), something that can take a lot of abuse and tuning errors, I wouldn't trust anything but OE tuning.

Built engines are built for a reason, so custom tuning makes sense there as it's tailored to a very specific hand-built one-of-a-kind application. These are mass production vehicles with variability in build to build, I'm going to trust the engineering teams that designed them!

Some people are claiming the FP Cal is "just a watered down Livernois cal", I find that hard to believe, they use Livernois programming platform and have for years, they work with Livernois on some things including custom machining work which is Livernois core business, but Livernois doesn't have the OE testing capability that FP does, they aren't data packing the ECU and collecting real-world data and they don't do nearly as much reliability testing because they simply don't have multi-million dollar test facilities like Ford does nor the team to do so (manpower resources).

See attached from Ford. From the PDF, this is of particular interest to most of us (long-term durability under extreme conditions):

So, if it's "just a watered down Livernois tune", then I guess Ford is lying about all their testing, tuning and development? The delivery platform has nothing to do with the actual calibration being loaded, how it was developed and tested etc.

I think it's pretty safe to say, from the massive amount of Ford product owners who have Ford Performance calibrations, that issues are VERY rare and I've yet to see a single one denied by warranty in the rare case it does occur AND when stuff occurs, thus far from what I personally know of (Mustang Ecoboost and GT 5.0L, Ford RR), the issues were due to a major mfg. defect that would have manifested weather it had the stock cal or FP cal, hence why it was covered under warranty.

My 2016 GT had a Stage 2 Power Pack, the driver's side catalyst went belly up at 17k miles, was covered under warranty no questions asked. Dealer didn't even bat an eye because they did the install and it was Ford's own ECU cal that had an issue, so it was assumed to be a part quality / assembly issue, not an aftermarket tuning issue.

There was a Mustang Ecoboost owner who had the Pro Cal done and engine grenaded at 10k miles (only one I ever saw on the Mustang forums with a FP cal, but LOTS of aftermarket tunes killed engines in under 30k miles). Approved long block under warranty and he re-loaded the FP cal and never heard back on any issues.

I think there was one RR owner on this forum that I know of with a blue RR that had the Pro cal, engine went belly up at 10k also, got it replaced under warranty (would have failed regardless, I forget what the cause was).

Excellent write up.
I've wondered about the torque capacity of the 10r60. It has 600nm(443 lb-ft) . Stock torque clip is 443 lb-ft. The Ford Performance tune has it set to 590 lb-ft. There must be extra capacity that the transmission can handle. It seems kinda on the edge with the aftermarket tunes with their greatly increased torque. It looks like the Livernoise tune is about 90hp and 100 lb-ft so it might be a good choice other than Ford Performance. So torque would be about the same as Ford Performance tune.

 

[superj]

Has Anyone with the Pro Cal up sized their tires? 34's or 35's. I havent tried it with mine yet but does the ProCal unit have an adjustment for tire size?

i have messed with the tire size stuff using my procal. not to 34s or 35s but just playing with it to get my speedo matched to my gps.

 

[RaptorME]

FP tune is 540 lb/ft not 590. You will also see that while other tunes pick up HP they don't gain much more torque than the FP tune so that says something. One more point on Livernois, I was considering their 93 tune so I gave them a call. They were able to give me a detailed breakdown of the differences between their 93 tune and the FP tune.

 

[nullderef]

Has Anyone with the Pro Cal up sized their tires? 34's or 35's. I havent tried it with mine yet but does the ProCal unit have an adjustment for tire size?

Not according to Ford Performance. It says so right on the site.

• ProCal Tool can read and clear DTCs
  • Tire size and gear ratio cannot be adjusted

 

[RaptorME]

Yup, think you need FORScan for that.

 

[Locust13CT]

Not according to Ford Performance. It says so right on the site.

• ProCal Tool can read and clear DTCs
  • Tire size and gear ratio cannot be adjusted

True i did see that, but all the material/instructions that come with with the procal (page 4) say you can. When I finally get home today i'll plug it in and check it out.

 

[Lion77]

So for piece of mind the FP Cal is probably the way to go. But do not discount the partnership between these 2 companies. I would assume that Livernois has access to ECU architecture that others don't. They have relationships with engineers that others don't. They have access to data that others don't.

I know a little bit about partnerships with a factory including Ford. I worked for a data acquisition company that was partnered with Ford Racing. They wanted us to develop instruments for their factory GrandAm race cars. We needed root level data from the CAN bus in order to achieve this. They gave us everything. We could see everything. Not just the data but how it interacted with other data. They would write new code if we needed it in order to provide them what they needed.

The amount of access we had to the engineers was instrumental in creating what Ford needed. We could also get info that we were not "supposed" to have but becuse we had personal relationships we were able to get access to it. We worked side by side with them.

When you have access to the factory over a long period of time you can just do more.

That's my 2 cents.

I don't disagree. Livernois has more capability with the Ford ECU's than most others because of their partnership with Ford Performance / Racing. However, they do not have the same level of expertise as the engineers designing and developing the Ecoboost engines.

That was my point, while they are certainly intertwined, there are also some considerable differences in expertise / capability. Developing auxiliary equipment and interfaces is one thing, using climactic engine dynos, know all the design limitations, compressor efficiency curves of the turbo's, flow rates, etc. is something entirely different.

There's where FP is in a league of it's own in terms of reliability. There IS a reason they aren't pushing more than 50 HP more on the 3.0L, because they can't maintain reliability under worst case conditions with more power, or over an expected reasonable service life of the engine / powertrain.

It's also why the Pro Cal for the F-150 Raptor's add's MUCH less than for the 3.0L RR. The 3.5L HO variant of the Ecoboost is far more tapped out from the factory than the 3.0L is. It may also be more octane sensitive due to smaller displacement, so there are bigger gains when narrowing your fuel choices to 91 or higher than with the 3.5L. Each engine is unique and has different thresholds for knock, timing, fueling and air.

Some people might be willing to replace a $10k engine or transmission at 30k miles for and extra 30~40hp....I'm NOT one of them! Especially since I have to pay off the truck still over several years lol.

I also don't want to waste tens of thousands of dollars for a few tenths of a second just for a limited time, power is at some point a game of diminishing returns, unless you have other significant supporting modifications, which then require completely custom tuning (i.e., big turbos etc.). To each his own, but I want reasonable power AND reliability, but I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability to get it and only a little bit of service life.

 

[Lion77]

Excellent write up.
I've wondered about the torque capacity of the 10r60. It has 600nm(443 lb-ft) . Stock torque clip is 443 lb-ft. The Ford Performance tune has it set to 590 lb-ft. There must be extra capacity that the transmission can handle. It seems kinda on the edge with the aftermarket tunes with their greatly increased torque. It looks like the Livernoise tune is about 90hp and 100 lb-ft so it might be a good choice other than Ford Performance. So torque would be about the same as Ford Performance tune.

We hashed out this whole 443 lb-ft stuff a long time ago. No Ford transmissions historically are rated in nm. Most sites reference ft-lbs, so IF the 60 * 10 thing is even real (which I don't think it is), then it would be 600 lb-ft.

Also, after extensive digging, I came to conclusion that the whole multiply 60 * 10 in whatever unit the internet decides on a given day is literally internet rumor. Why would you do that? It's irrational. As an engineer myself (electrical), you would just label it 10R600...if the 600 meant ft-lbs or nm. Or you go by an industry standard, such as 601, meaning 60^10th. So, the 3rd number would be 10^x, 1 being 10, 2 being 100, 3 being 1,000.

The whole multiply 60 * 10 thing is a square peg in a round hole. Plus, I have been unable to find a SINGLE engineering drawing or spec sheet from Ford on the transmission torque input ratings. They simply don't publish that information. These are all ASSUMED by people on the net and then get repeated and taken as fact, including a few on-line hot rod / transmission publications. Nothing official from Ford.

I believe the second number more likely correlates to the bell housing bolt pattern or diameter in CM than torque rating. Kinda like a lug pattern on a wheel or hub bore. You can take any transmission and increase the input torque capacity with larger clutch packs, stronger gears etc. to a point, are they going to change the name then? You can change the torque converter stall speeds / multiply factor etc.

I think it's safe to say, the 10R60 in the RR was designed to handle the 3.0L's torque even with the Pro Cal and I also provided direct statements from Ford Performance on that subject as well back in this thread.

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