Poll: Stock or Pro Cal (What's your experience, Good, Bad, Meh?)

[Lion77]

When I started in performance cars, my first was 2015 Mustang Ecoboost. I did the Livernois 93 tune and cracked a plug insulator due to detonation. Almost trashed the engine, when it happened, I thought I had destroyed a piston since I heard a loud single ping one day just out of the blue when giving it some throttle on a back road. Then a flashing check engine light and very rough idle, I limped home and started to diagnose, thinking I had just destroyed the engine in my first performance vehicle!

Pulled the plugs to get a borescope in and look for damage and found one of the insulators cracked and slid down on the plug electrode but got hung up on the end so it didn't fall into the cylinder. Got lucky. Their tunes are NOT the safest. Some people don't have issues, but I really do not believe they are anywhere near as reliable as FP.

I ended up selling the Livernois programmer / tune and then bought and FP Power Pack, NEVER hand any issues with it, never any pinging, no cracked plugs, no drivability issues etc. Also, with the Livernois 93 tune I was getting pinging sometimes when running the same octane as the tune (so 91 on 91 tune), so I had to revert to their 91 tune and then run 93 octane. The cracked insulator happened before I had downgraded to their 91 tune on 93 octane.

Was it aggressive and fun? Sure, but not worth trashing an engine for! The only mods that car had were the tune, an intercooler and FP cat back exhaust. So, it SHOULD have been fine...clearly it wasn't up to snuff and maybe my car had more production variability than they accounted for.

On a built bottom end, I think it would have been fine running 91 tune on 93 octane. On a stock bottom end? Disaster waiting to happen. I will never use theirs or anyone else's ECU cal's on a stock Ford engine again.

My opinion:

1. Aftermarket ECU Cal's should ONLY be used for engines with built bottom ends (i.e., a custom race / performance street engine with forged Mahle rods and pistons).

2. On stock blocks, Ford Performance or factory ECU cal's only. Period.

I cannot tell you HOW MANY Mustang Ecoboost's and even GT's ended up with trashed engines using non-Ford ECU cal's on the Mustang forums, it was a shockingly frequent occurrence.

Maybe if your running E85, you can get away with aggressive big power non-Ford ECU cal's on a stock bottom end, since E85 really helps with knock resistance due to the cooling effects, but then you're at blending fuels and most often modifying injectors and fuel pumps etc. That's well beyond factory hardware and a huge PITA for most people.

Plus, the RR is an off-road truck, 99% of actual off-road terrain doesn't even allow you to use the full power of even a stock RR...let a lone a Pro cal tuned one, because of suspension limitations. You'll out-drive the chassis before you'll run out of power, so it's really only on the street where the extra power matters and for me, the Pro Cal adds enough to hit that "Raptor-like" sweet spot.

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[Crapblaster]

FP tune is 540 lb/ft not 590. You will also see that while other tunes pick up HP they don't gain much more torque than the FP tune so that says something. One more point on Livernois, I was considering their 93 tune so I gave them a call. They were able to give me a detailed breakdown of the differences between their 93 tune and the FP tune.

I have the HP Tuner dongle and software. The 590 is what is in the software. The engine might not make that much. Stock was 443. There is quite a bit of setting they changed in the Ford Performance tune. They must have put a lot of work into it.

 

[Crapblaster]

FP tune is 540 lb/ft not 590. You will also see that while other tunes pick up HP they don't gain much more torque than the FP tune so that says something. One more point on Livernois, I was considering their 93 tune so I gave them a call. They were able to give me a detailed breakdown of the differences between their 93 tune and the FP tune.

Could you give a cliff notes version of the differences? That would be interesting to hear if it's worth it for the extra HP.

 

[RaptorME]

I now have a 5* tune. I ran one for 5 years on my F150 3.5 and that was a beast, I think they pushed it to almost 500 hp and 600 TQ. I ran that from basically new btw. Nice thing with them is they have actual dyno plots on their website (except for the RR yet). I drove that truck plenty hard and never had an issue. In addition, they will adjust your tune if you make changes like downpipes, intercooler, etc. It is a semi-custom tune, probably between Goose/ZFG custom tunes and FP/Livernois which are canned tunes and can't be adjusted. I may go Goose at some point but for now didn't feel like going through the data logging process (been down that road a few times). I think the FP tune is great for torque but conservative on the HP. Goose makes over 100 hp and TQ and FP is 50 hp and 100 TQ, I am probably somewhere in-between and very happy with the power. Sport mode is almost silly so I am in normal most of the time. The trans tuning is much improved with FP but my new tune is even better.

I'm sure some of you are aware but there is crazy power being made in Explorer STs with the same engine. To each their own, we have 5 cars and 4 are tuned (5th is a lease and a hybrid). I know the risks and no, you can't use all the power all the time but a good tune let's you enjoy much more torque every time you drive your vehicle. All our tuned vehicles picked up between 75-100+ TQ and are much more fun to drive on a daily basis. All the manufacturers leave a lot on the table with these turbo engines.

 

[Locust13CT]

So yes, you can tire adjust with a Procal. You just tap the value and you can punch in your own numbers depending on your tire size then an ignition on/off dance. Not sure why Ford has it labeled on the website that you can't do it...? I brought it up because i was thinking to switch to the Cobb Accessport which has a nice Tire size editor and the extra power thru a goosetune would be a nice bonus, but if the Procal can do what I need it to, then Im perfectly content keeping it and love the extra power it gives.

 

[Arsenall11]

The ford tune is just under the max torque limit of 10R60 transmission, the F150 runs 10R80 that will handle more torque.

 

[schwartzki]

My buddy is a service advisor at a Ford dealer, he called into the warranty hotline asking about how the warranties and Gold CPO work with a ProCal tune and they said basically anything "touched/affected" by the tune aka most of the entire powertrain is not covered under the powertrain/CPO warranty which was enough for me to NOT get a ProCal.

 

[superj]

once you move past that screen on the procal for adjusting tire size, the number you change is the revolutions per mile of the tire. its not in mm or inches but rpms of the tire in a mile. google was not very helpful in figuring out what the stock 18 inch tire should read so i had to play with it a few times to get my speedo to .5 off the gps reading.

just fyi for people wanting to change their tire size to correct their speedo

 

[Locust13CT]

I've found the Tirerack site really good for that info, just look up your Brand/tire size and click the specs. Changing the revolutions is technically changing the tire size. Its alil more complicated than entering 34" or 35" but its more precise as tires all vary in height. The truck/wheel speed sensors/abs sensors look at revolutions or lack there of, The bigger the tire the less revolutions to cover a fixed distance.

 

[BrrRaptor]

I feel the truck has plenty of power, I'd like to just tune the transmission and throttle.
Does anyone know if that's available from anyone?

 

[superj]

Not specifically for those. You have to get the normal tune to get the trans tunes

 

[Lion77]

So yes, you can tire adjust with a Procal. You just tap the value and you can punch in your own numbers depending on your tire size then an ignition on/off dance. Not sure why Ford has it labeled on the website that you can't do it...? I brought it up because i was thinking to switch to the Cobb Accessport which has a nice Tire size editor and the extra power thru a goosetune would be a nice bonus, but if the Procal can do what I need it to, then Im perfectly content keeping it and love the extra power it gives.

I wonder if that's something they added with the last software update for the tuner? When it first came out, there was no option to adjust tire size to many people's surprise. My 2016 Mustang GT Pro Cal 3 tuner had the ability to adjust tire size and axle ratios even on a car!

I'm betting they added it as a basic feature since it's a common option on most of FP's cal's / tuner interfaces and due to time / resources they probably didn't do it initially just figuring they would add it in later.

 

[ducktapeonmydesk]

Still mulling over the Pro Cal and looking for a good collection of feedback from everyone's experiences with it. Some say it's the best thing for the RR since filling up with premium...some say it's not worth the price of admission...some say stock for long term reliability concerns or the ability to run 87 for more frequent use cases. Lots of varying opinions, just looking for a variety of feedback.

Summary of What We Know / Things to Consider

1. We now know the 10R60 is rated for 600 lb-ft of input torque. With the factory output maximum of 430 lb-ft, there's a 29% safety margine which is close to a 2/3 de-rating for high reliability. The Pro Cal does cut that margine down to about 10% but certainly does NOT exceed the input torque rating.

Also, the 600 lb-ft input torque rating is the maximum input torque the 10R60 can handle and still achieve its rated service life (150k-200k which is typical of OE life span expectations). So, while it does reduce the safety margin, how meaningful that will be long term is debatable (if it has any significant impact at all remains to be seen).

2. We also know that Ford Performance has their 3yr/36k supplemental warranty to cover any damage IF it was found the Pro Cal caused it. Beyond that you're relying on the factory / extended warranties after that point and they are still valid for any failures NOT deemed to be caused by Pro Cal (i.e., a cam phasor goes out, which I think is unlikely to be deemed to be caused by the Pro Cal given the history of that issue). There is increased risk, but it's low.

3. Requires 91 or higher octane. The added power / torque is coming from eliminating the need for the ECU to scale back timing if the driver suddenly switches from 91 back down to 87. You can only get so aggressive of 91 when having to scale back timing advance fast enough in that event.

4. The Pro Cal does NOT affect towing as directly stated by Ford Performance.

5. Ford Performance also states they extensively tested BOTH the engine and driveline for durability, so despite cutting the safety margine down from 29% to 10%, it is still well tested none the less.

6. Requires install by ASE certified tech for warranty. Levittown has it for about $685, so add in labor of around $150, it's not terribly expensive.

What's your personal experiences with the Pro Cal vs. stock? Looking for details, specific things you like or dislike to really consider whether to go Pro Cal or stay stock. I've used FP products in the past as my 2016 GT PP had a Stage 2 Power Pack, but not all of FP's Cal's are worth it (some are very modest and just not worth the price, while others provide substantial enhancements).

Isn't the 10R60 rated at 600 newton-meters?

 

[Lion77]

Internet lore. There's not a single official document from Ford stating that the "60" in 10R60 has anything to do with input torque ratings.

The older ford transmissions in trucks going back to 90s were all assumed to be rated in lb-ft. So no, its not rated for 600nm, its more than that. And even then it was assumptions from magazines that were parroting this assumption which then became accepted as "true" despite no actual mechanical drawings proving it had anything to do with input torque ratings at all.

Otherwise Ford is actively building 10R140 transmissions for the latest gen F350 6.7L HO Power Stroke diesels that don't even have the torque capacity for the stock engine that makes 1200 lb-ft, lol. You can go on Ford's site for the F-250's and 350's and look this all up. They offer a 6.7L High Output (HO) option for the Power Stroke that's 1,200 lb-ft output torque, but uses the same 10R140 transmission.

For an F-350 with a 10R140 transmission, if 140 * 10 WAS in nm, that works out to only 1032 ld-ft, so are we to believe they are making 80-100k work trucks with transmissions that dont even handle the stock engines output torque? And are supposed to tow over 20,000lb loads and last for several hundred thousand miles on top of it with a transmission that's clearly under-rated for its application? It makes ZERO sense, but on the internet, it "must be true" cause some ignorant publication said so...(sarcasm intended towards the sources misleading people).

At MINIMUM, it COULD be rated in lb-ft, but most likely has nothing to do with input torque at all and maybe bolt pattern dimension of the bell housing where the torque converter is, kinda like 6x5.5 in hub pattern for wheels means six lugs with a 5.5in pattern.

Remember kids, not everything you read on the net is true

 

[Viporpa]

Just did the Pro Cal tune. Very impressed and happy with the results. The shifting was my biggest issue with the truck. That is now been corrected and the horsepower and torque are a bonus ! Very noticeable power and torque right out of the gate , before the learning is even done at 300 miles.

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