RR 3.0 Wet Belt Driven Oil Pump - issues in future?

[MasterCylinder]

my xl headlights are perfectly fine. i think some people just like to complain about things to complain.

the oil belts, the mileage being drivne on new vehicles definitely shows they can do miles. theo honda belts show that honda figured something out on wet belts, for sure.


i hope no one has a belt failure on the oil pump. i had timing belts break a week before it was time to change them. that sucks. luckily bmws were very easy to work on back then so you could tear the engine down and have a replacement head on in a few hours. either way, i hope no one has to go through that deal.


so when did the mustang 5.0 get the oil pump drive belt? my sister-in-law has a 5.0 gt mustang that eats rear tires because ford can't figure out the rear alignment and she is a decent bit over 100k

My 5.0l eats tires because of the alignment of my foot in relation to the floor. just had to say superj.

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[MasterCylinder]

Seems like a lot of people here are relying on ai to scrape the internet for wrong information lol.

I did my research and I saw tons of the 1.0 oil pickups getting clogged in teardown videos, but not a single 2.7. It is by far Fords most reliable engine and has had the wet belt for a while.

Fuds wanna Fud

I've actually found a glove in a new motor with on and off again oil pressure problems no one could isolate. So I pulled the pan and my jaw hit the ground amoung the words coming out! It was years ago.

 

[daytoncarter]

Seems like a lot of people here are relying on ai to scrape the internet for wrong information lol.

I did my research and I saw tons of the 1.0 oil pickups getting clogged in teardown videos, but not a single 2.7.

Maybe because the 2.7 got a belt in 2018, and the 1.0 has been out since 2012? There literally hasn't been enough time for the rubber to chemically degrade in the 2.7.

I mean if you're going to mock people's inputs you should at least understand the premise of the argument.

 

[RangerDangerStranger]

And yet my Friend's 21' Explorer ST has 130k+ miles on it, run out to 10k intervals with just MC Blend, he only recently switched to FS. Did UOI's on it periodically and for his uses, it was working just fine. Time will tell but seems to go against the common ideology of "if it's a belt, it must fail".

Belt or chain, each has their application and as materials advance, much more robust belts have been developed. The Oil Pump is a rather low stress part, especially variable geometry pumps and modern belts, as stated above, are a type of Kevlar vs. some of the older designs, and are highly resistant to wear.

Did we all forget that un-coated metals are also highly susceptible to acids? Do you think your cam lobes or cylinder walls won't get pitted from acids? Will a pitted cam lobe last long or will it wear rapidly then fail? What about the iron cylinder walls? The SAME problems that kill steel and iron components will kill a wet belt.

When wet belts first came out, they were problematic, for sure...back in 2007! New technology application, that's usually the case of early gen designs of...anything! But wet belts for oil pumps are quite mature now. If manufactured properly and maintained properly, just like your cam lobes, timing chains and tensioners etc., it will last for the life of the engine.

5.0's also have wet belt now too (this was one was torn down due to a bad valve that caused #6 cylinder compression loss):

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Soooo, how many oil pump chain failures were they to cause the re-design? I have NEVER heard on one.

 

[Jason B]

Soooo, how many oil pump chain failures were they to cause the re-design? I have NEVER heard on one.

I don't know, or how to find out. Every time I search "Ford 2.7 oil pump belt failures" most of the results lead to forums like these speculating reliability, or to that guys you tube video.

Scheduled Maintenance - Scheduled Maintenance

Ford seems to think it will last 150~200k with proper maintenance. Nothing in the service about changing the oil pump belt.

That's for the accessory belt, the one that drives the AC and alternator.

 

[BLIZZARDIBLO]

At this point, like it or not, it is pretty obvious that this is a technical downgrade going from a lifetime steel part to a rubber part in one of the engine if not, the most important system.
I feel as a consumer, as a buyer, as a user, victim of corporation profit abuse.
Technology exists a long time ago, many issues nowadays are just to make money.
I don’t like to have an engine disassembled just for change a 15 dolar rubber belt. There are issues that can arise from this repair if badly done.

 

[Lion77]

Soooo, how many oil pump chain failures were they to cause the re-design? I have NEVER heard on one.

Never said the switch was due to limits of chain drives. Its fuel economy and possible better knock sensing as its one less chain creating a noise floor.

Plenty of engines from all makes and models have failed due to chain stretch and tensions that get stuck. It was a particualry big issue on gen 1 3.5L.

Doesn't make timing chains bad, just a design limitation and component that benefits from design refinement and better oils.

What makes oil pump belts any different? Been around since 07....not exactly new tech.

Im still waiting on some actual statistical failure data on belt vs. chain reliability...any takers? If I see some hard data, I yield, aside from that its nothing more than internet speculations as usual.

 

[Lion77]

https://www.cedargarage.co.uk/project/ford-ecoboost-wet-belt-replacement/

Also note the 1.0L and 1.5L use timing + pump belts. Cams have a lot higher loads than oil pumps....completely different application in the 1.0L and 1.5L EBs using a belt there.

2.7 / 3.0 /5.0s use belts on the pump only. Cams are still chain driven. Seems that a lot of the 1.0L and 1.5L issues came from timing belt wear and not so much the oil pump belt.

The oil pump belt failures were a smaller portion of the failures as most of the worn belt images are showing timing belts (which have always needed to be replaced periodically) and seems like people got them confused a lot.

Just some more data points. And nearly all of the Ford 1.0L wet belt issues in my search show the timing belt, 99% of them are replaced on maintenance interval and some shops did the oil pump belt as added precaution since it was already torn down, not because it was called for.

Id do the same thing, if its already apart for timing, why not as cheap insurance? Doesn't mean its an issue and could go much longer. That sheds more light on the whole wet belt issues Ford had in early 2k timeframe. They kinda reinvented the timing belt, but made it last longer (3x longer than dry timing belts) but also more expensive to service.

Im guessing the oil pump belts proved highly reliable over time and it was the timing belts that were the big headache 99% of the time and always have been, dry type or wet type.

My 1997 Mazda MX-5 M Edition had a timing belt that needed replaced every 60k miles.... what a PITA!

 

[superj]

On the bmw m20 motor, you had to do it before 40k or you risk them slipping. The book said 50 or 60k but real life was different

 

[Lion77]

I don't know, or how to find out. Every time I search "Ford 2.7 oil pump belt failures" most of the results lead to forums like these speculating reliability, or to that guys you tube video.



That's for the accessory belt, the one that drives the AC and alternator.

I wasnt implying the Acc belts, I was implying that there is no service callout for the oil pump belt anywhere out to 200k miles, so Ford considers it good for the life of the engine.

Industry standard has been 150k service life expectation for gas engines assuming severe service conditions with proper maintenance, kinda worst case. Most go 200k-250k if maintained.

 

[Lion77]

On the bmw m20 motor, you had to do it before 40k or you risk them slipping. The book said 50 or 60k but real life was different

Thanks for proving me point on people's confusion of timing belts vs. oil pump wet belts.

https://www.e30zone.net/e30wiki/index.php/M20_Timing_Belt_Change

 

[hand-filer]

Why would Ford go full overkill with a compacted graphite cast iron block and forged internals and then deliberately create a weak link? The short answer is they wouldn't.
I'll replace the belt when the timing chain, guides and chain tensioner reach their serviceable limits.

 

[hand-filer]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue here. We aren't talking about manufacturing defects or quality control slips.

The issue is that this belt is, by definition, a consumable wear item. It is made of materials that naturally degrade over time due to heat and friction.

You have to distinguish between 'lifetime' parts and 'service' parts. A metal timing chain is generally engineered to be a 'lifetime of the vehicle' component—it doesn't chemically break down just by sitting there. A belt does. It has a finite shelf life and operational life. The problem isn't that the belt is 'defective'; the problem is treating a temporary, degradable wear item as if it were a permanent lifetime component like a chain.

Timing chains are not a 'lifetime' component. They stretch over time (considerably). Neither are the chain guides and chain tensioner.
So much misinformation in this thread.

 

[daytoncarter]

Why would Ford go full overkill with a compacted graphite cast iron block and forged internals and then deliberately create a weak link? The short answer is they wouldn't.

The short answer is: The EPA.

You are confusing necessity with Ford's emissions targets. The CGI block isn't "overkill" because Ford felt generous; it is built to help them reduce their emissions. When you shove high boost into a small displacement engine to meet F-150 towing demands (13k lbs) and fuel economy standards, a standard iron block risks cracking. The CGI is there to survive the stress, not to last 50 years.

The wet belt is a separate system designed for efficiency. It reduces parasitic friction to help fleet fuel economy. The durability of the block does not magically protect the rubber belt from chemical degradation. One is built for boost; the other is built for MPG.

Timing chains are not a 'lifetime' component. They stretch over time (considerably). Neither are the chain guides and chain tensioner. So much misinformation in this thread.

Again, you are still conflating Mechanical Wear (Steel) with Chemical Degradation (Rubber).

"Lifetime" in automotive terms means there is no scheduled maintenance interval. Chains do not have an expiration date; they wear linearly. We routinely see these chains last 250k, 300k, or even 500k miles.

The "Misinformation" is implying the failure modes are equal.

• When a Chain Fails: It stretches. You get a P0016 code, a Check Engine Light, and a rattle. The truck still runs, and you have time to fix it.
• When a Wet Belt Fails: It doesn't just "stretch." It sheds teeth and rubber debris into the oil pan. This clogs the pickup screen and starves the engine of oil.

Re: "I'll replace the belt when the timing chain... reach their serviceable limits." That isn't a maintenance plan; that is not economical. On a modern DOHC engine, a full timing job (chains, guides, tensioners) is a massive labor undertaking. By the time your chains actually wear out (likely 250k+ miles), the cost of that labor often exceeds the value of the truck or a replacement engine.

You are betting your engine's survival on a rubber part chemically rotting in hot oil, while waiting for a steel part to wear out that might outlast the chassis.

 

[hand-filer]

You are betting your engine's survival on a rubber part chemically rotting in hot oil, while waiting for a steel part to wear out that might outlast the chassis.

Correct!

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