RR 3.0 Wet Belt Driven Oil Pump - issues in future?

[daytoncarter]

The belts today are made with Kevlar not the rubber ingredients of old... See Pictures.

Respectfully, look closely at the picture you posted. See all that black material surrounding the yellow/gold Kevlar cords? That is rubber. Specifically, it is usually Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene Rubber (HNBR).

Kevlar is only there for tensile strength—it stops the belt from stretching or snapping. But the body of the belt and the teeth that actually engage the gears are made of elastomer (rubber).

• The Failure Mode: The Kevlar rarely fails. What fails is the rubber matrix chemically degrading from heat and acidic oil. Once the rubber gets brittle or swells, the teeth shear off. You're left with a perfectly strong Kevlar loop that spins freely while your oil pump stops.
• The Reality: Without that rubber binder, the Kevlar is just a pile of loose string. It is still a rubber part.

I personally have a bigger problem with headlight costing $1100 just for the part.

I hear you on the price, but there is a major difference in utility. Unlike the belt, which is a cost-cutting measure for EPA compliance that offers me zero user benefit, those $1,100 lights offer massive functional improvements. Further, you may not have noticed, but other owners of the XLT/XLs frequently complain about how ineffective their lights are. The Ranger Lariat's headlights are the best out of the seven vehicles I've owned.

• Cornering Lights: They actually rotate/fire to let me see around turns safely.
• Matrix Function: They light up the ditches and my lane without blinding oncoming traffic (glare-free high beams, once fully enabled).

I'll happily pay $1,100 for a safety feature I use every night. I'm less happy paying for a design choice that puts a shelf-life on my engine.

Sponsored

 

[JDCV67]

This and weight were the two main reasons for getting the 2.3L MPC. After driving the dinky 4cyl 1000 miles, I can't say I'm wanting for more power.

To be fair, there are 300k and maybe even 500k mile examples of 2.7s in other Fords already. But that's over 3-5 years of hard use, let's see how the belt looks after 10, 15, or 20 years.

The wet belts will fail by that time without replacement. There are plenty of youtube videos of technicians disgusted with wet belt failures in Ford engines.

 

[Lion77]

Scheduled Maintenance - Scheduled Maintenance

Ford seems to think it will last 150~200k with proper maintenance. Nothing in the service about changing the oil pump belt.

For all those assuming it will fail, why are you buying a Ford then? Not really making sense. Your convinced it's a bad / terrible design yet you keep buying Fords? I'm really not understanding the logic in this....as a degree'd engineer, we see this all the time, "we know better because I read about it on the internet, therefore my speculations are true and you know nothing...".

Sure, engineers make mistakes, sometimes we're forced into decisions based on project cost goals, not because we want to. The oil pump belt is a design choice for fuel economy and there are plenty of engines with oil cooled belts that are decades old.

We already know they can handle high mileages (i.e., my friend's 2021 Explorer ST and other newer vehicles with high mileages). Then the argument became "well it's age that's going to kill it" and I disproved that with Honda's widespread use of wet belts over decades in a variety of engines from lawn mowers, motorcycles to passenger cars.

So now we're back to "it's a belt therefore it's bad"....seriously..... Some me some actual statistical failure data and the causes. Show me some actual data on 100k vehicles from Ford or another manufacturer of engine failure rates, their causes and the percentage of them attributed to oil cooled oil pump belts.

This mechanic swearing by this or that isn't proof. It's one or two occurrences. Just like the cam phasor issues. Mechanic X had 10 cars in x months all with cam phasor issues....but Mechanic Y said he rarely sees them...whose lying and whose telling the truth? Both are probably true. Maybe Mechanic X is seeing cars affected in a region by a bad lot...and Mechanic Y is in a region where the parts were from good lots. Unless you have all the mass back-end data, it's all just speculation.

 

[stemplar]

The wet belts will fail by that time without replacement. There are plenty of youtube videos of technicians disgusted with wet belt failures in Ford engines.

With respect, filter out the known-bad 1.0l ecoboost failures and focus on the 2.7l or 3.0l. Not doing so is like seeing all the reports on 1.5l ecoboost fuel injector failures and saying the 2.7 and 3.0 are bad too because they have fuel injectors.

 

[MasterCylinder]

Respectfully, look closely at the picture you posted. See all that black material surrounding the yellow/gold Kevlar cords? That is rubber. Specifically, it is usually Hydrogenated Nitrile Butadiene Rubber (HNBR).

Kevlar is only there for tensile strength—it stops the belt from stretching or snapping. But the body of the belt and the teeth that actually engage the gears are made of elastomer (rubber).

• The Failure Mode: The Kevlar rarely fails. What fails is the rubber matrix chemically degrading from heat and acidic oil. Once the rubber gets brittle or swells, the teeth shear off. You're left with a perfectly strong Kevlar loop that spins freely while your oil pump stops.
• The Reality: Without that rubber binder, the Kevlar is just a pile of loose string. It is still a rubber part.

I hear you on the price, but there is a major difference in utility. Unlike the belt, which is a cost-cutting measure for EPA compliance that offers me zero user benefit, those $1,100 lights offer massive functional improvements. Further, you may not have noticed, but other owners of the XLT/XLs frequently complain about how ineffective their lights are. The Ranger Lariat's headlights are the best out of the seven vehicles I've owned.

• Cornering Lights: They actually rotate/fire to let me see around turns safely.
• Matrix Function: They light up the ditches and my lane without blinding oncoming traffic (glare-free high beams, once fully enabled).

I'll happily pay $1,100 for a safety feature I use every night. I'm less happy paying for a design choice that puts a shelf-life on my engine.

Kevlar is a synthetic polymer can be and is mixed with rubber compounds, (among others, I use Kevlar clutches for instance ). for strength and durability, not just in the cord materials. It can withstand temperatures above 850°F, remains pliable even at very low temperatures, down to -320°F and is stronger than steel wire.
Granted we will ever know it's exact construction! The pump itself was changed by design for better oil control and supply.
My XLT' lights shine through the pavement, zero complaints for visibility for me. Fog lights light up for cornering when wheel is turned. Cost hell yes but it's a new vehicle! The wonderful EPA probably cost us 30% of the vehicles cost today, if not more, for manufactures to comply with.

 

[Ron Quixote]

Further, you may not have noticed, but other owners of the XLT/XLs frequently complain about how ineffective their lights are.=

We do? I own several vehicles with full projector LEDs. While they are definitely better, the reflector LEDs on the Ranger are perfectly good.

 

[daytoncarter]

While they are definitely better, the reflector LEDs on the Ranger are perfectly good.

Yeah, I've heard mixed opinions here, no idea myself. Anyway, I didn't really state an opinion on the reflector LEDs, just stated that the Ranger projectors are the best headlights I've experienced.

" My 24 XLT lights are terrible (low beams especially)."
XLT headlights - opinions? | Ranger6G - 2024+ Ranger & Raptor Forum, News, Owners, Community (6th Gen)

 

[Ron Quixote]

Ok!

 

[superj]

my xl headlights are perfectly fine. i think some people just like to complain about things to complain.

the oil belts, the mileage being drivne on new vehicles definitely shows they can do miles. theo honda belts show that honda figured something out on wet belts, for sure.


i hope no one has a belt failure on the oil pump. i had timing belts break a week before it was time to change them. that sucks. luckily bmws were very easy to work on back then so you could tear the engine down and have a replacement head on in a few hours. either way, i hope no one has to go through that deal.


so when did the mustang 5.0 get the oil pump drive belt? my sister-in-law has a 5.0 gt mustang that eats rear tires because ford can't figure out the rear alignment and she is a decent bit over 100k

 

[hand-filer]

my xl headlights are perfectly fine. i think some people just like to complain about things to complain.

the oil belts, the mileage being drivne on new vehicles definitely shows they can do miles. theo honda belts show that honda figured something out on wet belts, for sure.


i hope no one has a belt failure on the oil pump. i had timing belts break a week before it was time to change them. that sucks. luckily bmws were very easy to work on back then so you could tear the engine down and have a replacement head on in a few hours. either way, i hope no one has to go through that deal.


so when did the mustang 5.0 get the oil pump drive belt? my sister-in-law has a 5.0 gt mustang that eats rear tires because ford can't figure out the rear alignment and she is a decent bit over 100k

It didn't. Only the F-150 5.0's have the belt drive oil pump.

 

[Jason B]

I just throw this here. Although it doesn't say anything about Ranger.
The oil pump belt has been used in F150 since 2018. And there are millions out there.

 

[Rossinsd]

Of course each person is entitled to their opinion. We can learn from each other so long as that learning comes from facts and not just an opinion. The YouTube channel "I Do Cars" has certainly not been a fan of belt driven oil pumps. Eric has shown degradation with the little 3 cylinder oil pump belt. But, with the 2.7 or 3.0 the problem seems much reduced. More data is needed.

As to Ford being motivated to build in a ticking time bomb, let's think about that. Suppose your 2.7 or 3.0 dies at 125K miles due to a belt failure. Think Ford is happy? Most folks would shop elsewhere for their next vehicle. Wouldn't you? They want engines to be reliable. It makes people happy. Toyota has upset a lot of buyers with their bottom end failures. Some will not come back to a brand they worshiped. Ford wants to be considered a highly reliable brand for repeat purchases.

Finally some actual facts. The oil pump belt is nothing like the 100K timing belts. The materials of construction are totally different. The only similarity is the fact that they are belts. They were intended to be in engine oil. Timing belts were designed with only minimal oil exposure. The fact is that we cannot extend experience with timing belts to engine oil pump belts.

Let's all keep an eye on any signs of potential failure in properly maintained engines. Until problems are found, I am not going to worry.

 

[Ron Quixote]

Of course each person is entitled to their opinion. We can learn from each other so long as that learning comes from facts and not just an opinion. The YouTube channel "I Do Cars" has certainly not been a fan of belt driven oil pumps. Eric has shown degradation with the little 3 cylinder oil pump belt. But, with the 2.7 or 3.0 the problem seems much reduced. More data is needed.

As to Ford being motivated to build in a ticking time bomb, let's think about that. Suppose your 2.7 or 3.0 dies at 125K miles due to a belt failure. Think Ford is happy? Most folks would shop elsewhere for their next vehicle. Wouldn't you? They want engines to be reliable. It makes people happy. Toyota has upset a lot of buyers with their bottom end failures. Some will not come back to a brand they worshiped. Ford wants to be considered a highly reliable brand for repeat purchases.

Finally some actual facts. The oil pump belt is nothing like the 100K timing belts. The materials of construction are totally different. The only similarity is the fact that they are belts. They were intended to be in engine oil. Timing belts were designed with only minimal oil exposure. The fact is that we cannot extend experience with timing belts to engine oil pump belts.

Let's all keep an eye on any signs of potential failure in properly maintained engines. Until problems are found, I am not going to worry.

Serious question: Why do you think Ford switched from chain to belt?

 

[Hootbro]

While not the same engine but still a wet belt, I know of a guy with a 2021 Ford Escape Sport with the 1.5L engine that has a wet belt oil pump that got to 300K miles before it became an issue. It was a loss of oil pressure from bits clogging the oil pump screen. That was with 5K mile oil changes.

 

[LantaLurker]

With respect, filter out the known-bad 1.0l ecoboost failures and focus on the 2.7l or 3.0l. Not doing so is like seeing all the reports on 1.5l ecoboost fuel injector failures and saying the 2.7 and 3.0 are bad too because they have fuel injectors.

Seems like a lot of people here are relying on ai to scrape the internet for wrong information lol.

I did my research and I saw tons of the 1.0 oil pickups getting clogged in teardown videos, but not a single 2.7. It is by far Fords most reliable engine and has had the wet belt for a while.

Fuds wanna Fud

Sponsored